Care Home Property & Other Stuff

HillStreetBlues

Hope this is the correct forum.

My mums currently owns a property but is going to sell up  and buy a property near me and then I will move in with her, so I can take care of her.

I'm trying to cover all bases.
I currently renting and on  PIP  both care and mobility.
If I have read the rules correctly if at some point in time (no sign yet)  after I moved in she had to go into a care home the property would be ignored as I would be living there (is that right?)

I am sole heir but I believe as property is involved  there would be a need probate (is the right?)
If on the new property we were joint owners  and my mum has less that £20k  then probate wouldn't be needed (is this right?)

Back to the care home, would it matter that she was only joint owner rather than full owner?  It would be all her money buying the property.
Could the council claim she gave the value of half the property away, so class it as Deprivation of Assets?

 

Brie

The short answer is it's complicated. 

Where you live may very well impact on this - and by that I don't just mean England vs Scotland or whatever but different councils may well deal with a property differently.

I'll explain what happened with us....

We sold our house and MiL sold her flat and she gifted us a portion to go towards a property which my OH & I were shown as owning (so not MiL).  The reason for doing this was so that we could look after her rather than her going into a care home as she was reaching the point of needing ongoing supervision (could be left alone for a few hours but not overnight and couldn't cook, clean or take care of her personal needs.)  So on paper & to the bank the house is ours and ours alone, although we did not hide her financial contribution.

When it was first discussed about her then going into a care home and getting assistance from the council they considered her contribution to be deprivation of assets as her name isn't on the deeds.  Their contention was that they could force a sale to pay for her care home costs despite our legal rep disagreeing with this.  The council's opinion only changed when they realised that I was 60 and so they weren't allowed to make us homeless.  Their alternative solution at this point was to put a lien on the house for any fees that they could claim when we eventually sell the house (hopefully not for a few decades yet....)

All of this was a moot point as she also had savings in excess of the £23.5k that is the cut off point for fully funding her own care.  So she paid for care and would have continued to do so until her savings were below that point.  As it happened she died before that point was reached.

So if you and mom on joint on the property and set up that when she dies you inherit it outright (sorry forgot the term for this) then I don't think a council could do anything about you moving out but they may still try to put a lien on her portion of the property.  What would then happen when she dies I don't know.  But if she has sufficient savings this may not be an issue - as was the case with us.  And ultimately in that situation the title of the property would be solely yours when she dies and probate wouldn't come in to it at all - at least that's how I understand it.

fyi - is she claiming attendance allowance?  And if you aren't working (as you're on PIP) are you claiming carer's allowance?  Do also ensure that you have all the relevant paperwork sorted out - power of attorney for both health and finance as well as wills in place.  This should be for you as well as her as no one knows what the future holds.

HillStreetBlues

Brie
Thanks for your post.
Mum doesn't want to claim AA  but I will persuade her hopefully soon.
Couldn't claim any CA as atm  250 miles apart, also I don't think I would get any extra as I believe my UC would reduce.
Would look into all that when she moves.

Just submitted both heath & wealth POA so just have to wait 6 months!   

Savvy_Sue

Are you over 60? The house wouldn't be out of the equation if mum needed care until you are. 

Sarahspangles

It’s a good thing to want to care for an elderly parent and a live-in family member can be flexible and less impersonal than carers coming in.  You are rightly considering the implications if they go into a care home and what happens to your housing when they die. Websites like Age UK answer the questions about property and care home fees reasonably clearly.

But life tends not to be so simple as one day someone needs a bit of help and the next they need the full level only offered by a care home, and on that day there’s a room available nearby.  More elderly people are cared for at home than in a home and their needs increase over time.

So you also need to think about the in-between stages.  For example, will there be capital to maintain the house and to pay for any adaptations needed as mobility declines?  Don’t automatically assume the social care system will fund these, it may be cheaper or more practical for them to arrange for the person to go into care at that point.

Also it’s hard work to care for a home and an elderly person as well. You’re in receipt of PIP so do you have reduced capacity to start with?  What if you need to buy in some more support?

lisyloo

Savvy_Sue said:

Are you over 60? The house wouldn't be out of the equation if mum needed care until you are. 

What about incapacity? Age uk say a relative receiving pip qualifies as incapacitated under mandatory disregard rules.

lisyloo

This is my understanding (I am not a lawyer).
probate would be needed unless your mum pays a solicitor, sets up a will with a trust arrangement and puts the house into the name of trustees. She’d need to pay a solicitor to set this up properly.
probate is not a big deal (and you can’t usually sell a house in less than 4 months anyway).
if access to cash is a concern (and I’m currently in a situation where I’m a 4 figure sum in debt with no access to estate) then it’s best your mum has her savings split over banks which are below the probate limits. This is easy to google e.g. below £50k and Lloyds, barclays will give the right person the money (after proof) without probate.
otherwise don’t worry about probate, you can do it yourself and it’s currently £273.
You can market a property (we are doing right now) without probate.

my research indicates you’d qualify for a mandatory property disregard, but as there are opposing views that needs to be confirmed.

when you say joint owners do you mean you will buy a share or have her give it to you.
both raise issues.
if she gives it to you specifically to avoid care fees then it still counts in the calculation as she cannot deliberately deprive herself of assets.
if you buy it she has more than £23k cash so is potentially in a worse situation.
why so worried about probate?

yes the local authority can claim deprivation of assets unless you have another valid reason for giving away the property.
my parents we’re tenants in common and 50% of the property was inherited on first death but this was done to a avoid inheritance tax - that is perfectly ok.
so what is the reason for the joint arrangement?
if it’s to avoid care fees then it will be treated as if she owned the whole lot, so pointless.

also do bear in mind that if she goes under the local authority the home might not be quite so nice (it could be awful in my experience) but certainly there could be a lot less bingo and hairdos which would affect her life.
she could also end up further away that you would like.

What may be best for your mum is to use her money to spend on care?

Keep_pedalling

Your mother would be foolish to do anything but own the new house outright. Giving nearly half her net worth away by making you a joint owner is a risk to her long term security. Apart from the issue of deliberate deprivation of assets, what happens to her if you run into financial difficulty? If you became bankrupt again she could loose the roof over he4 head.

elsien

You are correct about the disregard on the house if you are incapacitated.  So what is the purpose of her giving her half of the house to you - what is she trying to achieve? Depending on the answer, it might be something that she needs to take legal advice on.
For example if you find it too much for you, or find a partner and  want to live elsewhere (just throwing random scenarios out there) then it may well be  be deliberate deprivation of assets and could also affect any means tested benefits you are claiming.

 The two of you need to run through all the what ifs, just in case.

lisyloo

Do bear in mind the local authority won't necessarily provide a care home close to her friends or family.
This could have a major impact on her life.
They tried (unsuccesfully) to put my MIL & FIL in different homes to save money when a place was available together. They had been married over 60 years.
We successfully won the case but it took strong advocacy to argue our case and win.

HillStreetBlues

Thank you all very much for the replies.

The reason for joint ownership was twofold
Many years ago (well before I came disabled) I gave my parents half the money to buy their flat.
I was earning good money, and it was always my mums dream to own her on home helped her to do that.
Mum thinks of it as half mine, I don't as it was a gift but she talked about have my name on new property
The other reason was to avoid probate (I know that's not a very big issue).

So going forward it will just be in my mum's name

Without getting too personal  as a family money issues have never bothered us, if one has it we all have it.

My mother does not want to going into a care home so  we will do everything to avoid that.
What is worrying my mum, is that I will have no where permanent to live if I don't inherit the property.
I had a S21 last year so had to move, my mother was in a worse state than I was.
So I have promised her I will do everything (legal) so I can keep the property.


So to keep that promise I have been trying to read up on the rules and ask questions.


The plan will now be I will move in with my mother when she buys a new property and will be solely in her name.
If she does need to go into care (hope that doesn't happen) , then my reading is the property is disregarded as "a family member is incapacitated."  but if the property was sold then care home costs can be claimed  from that sale.

I would like to know if that's correct., thanks.


The area moved to isn't certain, could be Wales or England and just having a read there are different limits on savings.


All we are both want is to legally reduce any fees we can.

Hopefully I've explained everything  but feel free to ask for more info.