Asset Rich, Cash Poor - Me vs £130k debt mountain

Whiterose23

Can your wife not get a job? What does she do all day while you’re at work and your son is at school? Being busy would help her mental health, and bringing in money will help with the debt.

CalJo99

You sound in a bad way. I read that you are still far too enabling of your wife, who is behaving appallingly, and seems to be trading on the birth trauma to excuse her appalling behaviour. You have a son - wonderful! You might not have had him. She has to be grateful for that - not self-pitying.

You mentioned somewhere above, that, in respect of limiting her access to alcohol, that 'she's an adult'. No, she's not. She's being the 'me me me' child in Parent/Child/Adult. You are trying to Parent her, and failing (despite MAMMOTH efforts on your part).

I appreciate we live in a pernicious world where unscrupulous companies lure folk into debt online etc.

Some extra thoughts. If she isn't earning her own money (is she?!), then you are the 'wallet'. Keep it shut. Take away her cards so she can't use them at all. Then, even more drastic, turn off the Internet. 

Don't waste pity on your wife - save it for your son, who has far, far more claim on you. Your wife has forfeited any entitlement to any more endless fussing over her. She will not seek help while she is being enabled by you. 

You love her - so aim for the best for her. And the best is her finally facing up to what she is doing to her son, her husband, and herself. Trading on her birth trauma is, quite frankly, pathetic. And selfish and shameful.

There is one really important person here - and it's your son. Not your selfish, self-pitying wife.

Whiterose23

It astonishes me in this day and age that couples are happy for the ‘wife’ to stay at home all day while the ‘husband’ goes out to work and pays for everything (and sometimes the other way round) It’s like going back to the 1970s. Why would anyone want to put up with such a blatant imbalance in a relationship when there’s no good reason for it? Particularly when facing huge debts, and even worse when the stay-at-home partner is so demanding, materialistic and selfish about money. I would exit the situation as fast as I could, particularly with a child suffering in the middle of it.

DebtSurfer

Wife's work

She'd be happy to get a job now. Only with her leaving the workforce in 2010, the gap is now 12 plus years.

I had massive problems with all my skills, when had less than three years gap, and only was able to jump back in because one of my friends had a suitable opening. I had to join a job in London, waking up 4:40am every morning to walk the dog, get myself ready and be there in the office 8:00am fair and square (the gorram outfit had 11 cameras in the main hall, IT spyware on most computers, draconian asymmetric policies (skewed picture of employer rights vs employees'), a complete w**ker owner who just ignored any people below department heads etc...) -- but that was a job and it paid me well... so, I didn't have much choice. And yet I lasted almost 2 years spending 3.5 hours a day on the commute both ways, until I found something more suitable -- where I already didn't have a gap so could be a proverbial chooser rather than a beggar.

Now imagine having 12 years gap.
Also, her language is still not 100% after all these years.

While she was employed at an assistant specialist level for three years, that had to be in London, we lived back then in 20 minutes' drive from the railway station, and before work I had to drive her to station, then go to work, then at the end of the day it was the other way round, drive to the station, collect her and drive home. Not only it wasted a lot of petrol, but lots of time as well.

Her salary there was £20k, then she was promoted and got £24k, then the company hit the dire straits and reduced salaries all round, so she's got £21k. They had a big, massive bully as one of the outfit's partners, who was shouting at people and making their life hell. Also, there was not much work to be done, so she tried to mentor other girls, but eventually the good jobs petered out and projects like Libya or Kazakhstan started to get up, which required to go on business trips to these places.

She was close to nervous breakdown, and I offered her to leave that company. She thought for a while and agreed. That was it.

Imbalance

Indeed, looks like 60's or 70's ideal ... or another country where affluent people can afford to just work themselves and provide for entire family without much effort -- that earns the man his "street creds". I wouldn't mind, honestly, to continue, but defo not to finance all these money shenanigans.
Also in that country, the wife would handle the home and the man would go & earn. Decent men would still participate a lot at home affairs helping their fairer half, but there'd be absolute respect to man's job.

In our small community (not a numerous one) most men are able to provide for their families, however in those of our families where children are older, often the wives find themselves some job or open their own small business.

I do have a goal for us to find her a job, too. Soon our son will be able to stay alone if he wants, so we won't be feeling like having an iron ball on our ankles.

I have a few ideas in mind, and she's been asking me for that. At one point she joked about opening an OnlyFans page, b/c no one else in the entire world would have her after this gap. Or going to join the sex workers cohort. Her ideas of work also implied finishing expensive courses (in the area of £2k) but this was cut short quite quickly without much discussion.
Not being able to work and self-realise does contribute to her frustrations and depression, so hopefully finding work will help with that too. 
Even with £1k additional income from her work I'd be able to start sorting our situation in gargantuan steps.

Our son

My son gets enough of me. I don't think he's suffering much. I am not egging him against his mom. Somehow he's still much closer to me than to his mom. However, when she's sober, she can play games with him or being creative, teach him to draw and play piano. She also is a great cook and let him watch her cooking and indeed, even help a bit. 

But him getting enough of me, often leads to me not having enough of me. I'm not diagnosed autistic, but certainly do share a few traits of them, and this is an increased need for time alone. So often I have to stay up late, which is not healthy. Working on this too now -- it's all nice & dandy to help people, but I'm no altruist... I need myself as much as the other people do.

Wife's childbirth experience and her health in general.

That's the main problem. She's not really seeking excuses, but her health is really frail. These conditions can be improved but require a lot of work on one's self, following medications, proper feeding, exercise. The main problem is her hypothyroidism, which as you would know, if unchecked, can lead to massive lack of energy. After her birth, she lost about 60% of entire blood volume, and despite any attempts, her last blood tests showed that she's still anaemic. Seriously battered liver also is not a good sign for energy. Now as well the diabetes.
Finally, add the clinical depression to the mix, and that is about mental energy. 
Which is the source of compulsive shopping and alco stuff. 
When you have no mental energy for anything, it is not pretence. It is very real. I've been mildly under the weather during my jobless years, and waking up to sit before computer and sending out those blasted hundreds of emails and messages seemed like a living hell. 
However I also can deal with this -- better than CBT probably -- so I just didn't indulge myself and chose the goal and reached it eventually.

She's not really "making excuses", she is drained of any grain of energy like a dead cat. At least with me firmly on her <backside> over her meds, she's making slow progress and goes baby steps towards looking her old, smiley and energetic, self.

As translated from our native language, when doing informal wedding vows... "I will care about you when you're drunk and I will care about you when you shat yourself." For most people today it's just funny words... "this wife has broken down, bring me another one". For some people it's still meaningful, as it was for my parents.

It just is taking an awful lot of one's energy to do full-time father duties + look after what practically still is a petulant, bed-ridden, cantankerous, child. But I'm doing very well with my practices and unwavering hope for the better.

DebtSurfer

SOA

One thing that jumped into my eyes indeed, was a few hundred negative monthly balance ("income minus expenses"). Yeah, this is not exactly sustainable position. But it is liveable. How?

Even with a few hundred going to waste (as I think) or Useful Things™ (as thinks my fair lady) the main driver of expenses is indeed credit card minimum payments. They are around £1200 or 1300. Half of this goes to lowering the balances, and half is (at this moment) wasted on interest deductions. 

The current situation is difficult because there's no 0% deals available with 96-98% card utilisation. You need to pay it off to 90% to start getting offers. Also unexpected car service bill killed one of the cards that didn't have balance. But even without increasing the balance on the cards, you can still spend some or all of these £600-700 you just paid off. That's acceptable if you need money to plug the gaping holes in your budget.

No, it's not getting you rid of debt, but paying off your mortgage in full does. And this prevents the overdraft from growing. I devised this trick when had to survive on a measly jobseeker's benefit, child's benefits and credit cards. Every month the compulsive shopping was not that big will allow to even pay off a bit of cards debt, and a bit of overdraft, while maintaining steady mortgage repayments.

This is a classical bootstrap scenario. If even one side of my debt wall gets weak, I can start moving in leaps & bounds. I'll grab myself by the hair -- like Baron Munchausen -- and get myself out of the swamp. It is bound to happen:

• Promotion
• Salary increase
• Wife finding a job
  
• Bonus
• Selling old stuff
• Vouchers from Tesco
• Vouchers from School (yes there are some, too!)
• Filling the surveys, gives you £10-30. 
• Council still owes me £400 or so for charging me council tax while I was on Universal Credit. I'll be on their a£$ like a ton of bricks.

Like I said,
Hey frogster, it's not all doom & gloom, you just keep your head above the milk level, don't allow yourself to glug it, and keep kicking even if there's no solid bottom under you -- and eventually the milk will turn into butter. 

CalJo99

Even if her physical health is genuinely frail, that's no excuse for her alcohol consumption and obsessive spending. Crack those two, and she can be as  frail as she likes (or doesn't like).

MalMonroe

Hi, I think your wife is very ill and it could well have been triggered by the birth of your son, even though some people here are saying she should be over that by now. No, it doesn't work like that. My cousin was so badly affected after the birth of her much-wanted daughter that she ended up with no marriage, no family and a daughter she was only allowed to see when her ex husband said it was all right. So she lost touch with her only child. Her life was a complete and utter mess. 

My sister in law is an alcoholic who has nearly died twice - emergency hospital admissions - and had to have a leg amputated because of her alcohol consumption. Yet, as you rightly say about your own circumstances, he is in no position to stop her because she's a grown adult and if she wants to kill herself that way, there's nothing he can do about it. She also smokes like a chimney and his life would be absolute hell if he didn't have the internet, me and his online friends. Her mental health is that she thinks everything is fine and dandy and tells us that she doesn't know why her leg was amputated as there was nothing wrong with it. (It was a mess). She now hates all doctors and has no logic because the alcohol has affected her brain. 

You need help. Your wife needs help. You need more help than we on here can give you, I'm afraid. We can empathise and sympathise and I really do. But as for proper help, you do need expert help.

My brother gets support from his GP. My sis in law will not tolerate any carers going into their house even though it's been attempted on a few occasions. Nobody knows just how bad things are for him because he protects her by saying nothing. She swears at him and she makes his life hell and there's absolutely nothing I can do. Which is really frustrating but - they are grown adults.

If I were you (and I'm not, I know that, I'm an older divorced woman) I would definitely phone one of the free debt help agencies as a starting point. StepChange, National Debtline or Citizens Advice. 

I might even try having a word with my GP because it's just awful living with an addict. Even though you say your mental health is strong, you do need some support. I feel that it must be helpful writing everything down here, and I truly hope that it is and I see it as your first step to improving your life, if you can just reach out to the professionals. There is help out there if you want it. People like my brother don't because he feels he's handling things. He isn't but he thinks he is, so there's nothing much we can do to help him, sadly.

It's a pity that you can't really discuss things with your wife but I understand why - and she's suffering herself. 

These are the only suggestions I can make and of course they are just that, entirely my own thoughts and opinions - but they may just help you to have a bit of a think about things in general. 

All the very best to you and your family. 

alt80

@DebtSurfer Yours and your wife's mindset directly affects your attitude to spending and hers. It doesn't really matter whether you or your wife use drugs or what she / you are drinking. You have stated she's an alcoholic and is still binging to the point of it being detrimental to her physical and mental health. She is spending in a destructive manner. You are trying to deal with this alone without her support. Without pulling in the same direction you'll continue on the treadmill without things improving. 

I'm not sure whether you were trying to take a sly dig or not with the 'valuing your head' comment fwiw I'm no roadman I earn about twice the amount you do, my home is worth about twice the value of yours and I drive the electric equivalent of your E-Class. I've also learned it means sweet !!!!!! all. I've been there thinking this !!!!!! means something, I still struggle with it but IT DOESN'T MATTER when your head isn't in the right place. 

As your SOA states you spend £200pcm on health I'm going to ask again if you have PMI - if so give them a call mate, you and your family deserve to have a brighter future.

DebtSurfer

alt80 said:

@DebtSurfer Yours and your wife's mindset directly affects your attitude to spending and hers. It doesn't really matter whether you or your wife use drugs or what she / you are drinking. You have stated she's an alcoholic and is still binging to the point of it being detrimental to her physical and mental health. She is spending in a destructive manner. You are trying to deal with this alone without her support. Without pulling in the same direction you'll continue on the treadmill without things improving. 

I'm not sure whether you were trying to take a sly dig or not with the 'valuing your head' comment fwiw I'm no roadman I earn about twice the amount you do, my home is worth about twice the value of yours and I drive the electric equivalent of your E-Class. I've also learned it means sweet !!!!!! all. I've been there thinking this !!!!!! means something, I still struggle with it but IT DOESN'T MATTER when your head isn't in the right place. 

As your SOA states you spend £200pcm on health I'm going to ask again if you have PMI - if so give them a call mate, you and your family deserve to have a brighter future.

No digs here at all.
When talking about drugs I just say what I always said. At one point in my life (while still young) I decided that I value my brain as a tool to earn money, I value it as my personality and character, I enjoy my natural emotions too much -- to ruin it all by doing any drugs. It helped me to never touch drugs and my childhood with an alco dad also averted me strongly from becoming a copy of my dad in that sense.

Also to prevent misunderstandings, I wanted to highlight that my wife doesn't do drugs either, . We both never did drugs. I quit smoking 20 years ago. All her problems are from alco. 

It's great that you managed to get along so well in life, it brings further hope into my mind. I don't do comparisons, I'm happy where I am financially for now (bar the debts of course ), but might choose to go up an orbit or two at one point, God permits. So I can agree that the prices of our houses or our cars means bugz all, that's why I drive the same car for 9th year in a row and love it still. 

DebtSurfer

My head in the right place
I don't know what makes people think that there's "something wrong with my head". 
Or that I need (psychiatric) help.
I'm not depressive, not paranoid, don't suffer from mental issues. I don't need any medicines either.
I'm not aggressive either, and enjoy quite a few things in my life. I don't attack people, gaslight people, manipulate people.
I'm not particularly sad, I'm quite a cheerful person -- hopefully.

Also, with all due respect, but what makes you think we don't talk with my wife? We talk a lot. It's just the financial questions causing problems, but that's understood -- she's clearly ashamed and hates the feeling.

While I can imagine how a psychologist or a psychiatrist could potentially be good for my wife (if not the implication of them bringing the very social services in our life that we try to keep at bay), I fail to see any use from them for myself.

I try to think what they can advise me that I don't know...
-- Perhaps you could explain?

P.S. Not to mention that where I hail from, if you ever got involved with the psychiatrist, you'd be severely limited in your life. Like never ever getting a driving licence, or chance to work with kids.

Debt charities
I totally agree that there are lots of people who they are for. They do help people to get out of impossible situations. But these  "solutions" don't come cheap. Only you pay with quality of your life, bringing austerity into it for years and years onwards. It's OK if you got no other choice. But if you do -- I'd avoid these.

For someone like me, the scenario could be like this:
- I call them (or join via chat)

- They ask you for a turn-yourself-inside-out financial striptease. You do that. Check.

- They notify you on the necessity of having a budget. Check.

- Of having income larger than your expenses. Check.

- They tell you that you spend too much on groceries.
--> No I'm not, I am saving like crazy already.

- Use the vouchers and stuff, they help. Check.
--> All you can think about and more. I probably can deliver university lectures on this subject.  

- Cut your bills! Check. 
--> Already cut to the core. Energy, Internet (sorry I'm not giving up my gigabit connection, I need it for work), but I spend just £15 on two SIM Only contracts with 12 GB -- a grandfathered BT Mobile out-of-contract arrangement, not available these days.
--> And I even got rid of TV Licence as I don't watch the telly at all, not even before Christmas. Only recorded films.

- Cutting your credit limits.
--> ROFL...
--> If I listened to that, when the proverbial hit the fan, I'd lose my home and be forced on the street -- only my carefully planned set of credit options pumped while I was in an excellent position to get and upgrade it -- had saved my home and allowed me to go on without relegating myself into a "Tesco Value" life.
--> Also if you cut the limits, chances are you will never get them again as high.
--> Nowadays we have all these pesky affordability rules and computerised decision algorithms which humans hardly can override (Gone are the days when I arrived to England, when a clerk in Barclays just adjusted data on the computer and instead of stupid cash card, provided me straight away with debit card and credit card with £8k limit.) It will be like doing vasectomy just because you think you don't need this anymore. 

- Then there's a battery of solutions existing (You don't really believe I didn't peruse StepChange's website, do you? Of course I did. And about ten others).
--> None of them works for me.
--> Some because the debt is too big.
--> Some because I have assets and guess what? ain't giving them up for fraction of their price, also I hate other people manipulating my life and having command over my life.
--> Some because all they will do is to get my credit score into gutter for a few years (I am 54 you didn't forget that? In 6 years I will be 60. Possibilities funnel gets narrower...).
--> They are only really working for people not managing the minimums.

- And SO... lots of time spent, oodles of personal information divulged, and "sorry we don't really have a solution for you". You have to get additional income maybe, or just wiggle a finger at your wife so she stops spending.

(Drum Roll).