31% increase on electricity daily standing charge, is this fair and just?

Scot_39

SnakePlissken said:

mac.d said:

dealyboy said:

... it's a flat rate.

Would you consider flat rate income tax fair? or council tax? or car tax? ... paying the same as everybody else.

It should be a percentage ... perhaps 5% to replace the VAT.

It's not really a flat rate though is it? I know they use the infrastructure excuse for more remote parts of the country, but why should someone in Edinburgh or Liverpool pay so much more than someone in London?

With the new rates, someone in south of Scotland or north Wales has to pay £60+ more a year than someone in east of England. Someone in the north of Scotland has to pay £75 more than someone in London. Particularly galling for those in the north who have not only colder climate and so need to spend more, but watch as all the surplus green energy is transferred south to those who are paying less.

Its not just the standing charge, its the connection charges for power generation in Scotland are higher than london. Yet majority of the  renewable generation is in Scotland, with another 10gw being added over next few years.

At least very soon, we will see a scottish grid controlled by a scottish government. Not a uk one that looks after its buddies.

Goodbye rip off UK!

Scotland - like the rest of the UK - despite SNP promises - operates the same renewables licensing scheme as rest of UK.

So any and all production - renewables etc - is owned by private companies - most not based on Scotland.

And they are making plans to export it - by the GW.

The Eastern HVDC links - the second of which looks to be being upgraded to 4GW / 2 links - including a link from the Islands to NE, NE to Peterhead and 2 Peterhead to N England (drax site at ???) - approved by Ofgem Nov/Dec 22.

Supplements phase 1 of the Eastern Link.

And that supplements the existing Western Link to Wales in use since 2019.

If all go operation - exporting over 7 GW of power.

Scot_39

dunstonh said:

It doesn't matter how many wind farms there are, it's the surplus energy that matters, and most of the surplus energy is transferred from the north of Scotland to the south.

It doesnt get that far south as distance from generation matters.

 

If the demand and the cost basis for investment is there - the power can be shifted if need be.

There already is an existing HVDC link from Scotland to Wales (c260m) - fully operational since 2019.

And as far as I can tell - another 3 (initial plans 2) scheduled from Scotland To England on the east coast - 1 (EGL2) - possibly now 2 cables - originally 1 - but second ( iirc actaully a different mix of private providers if read Ofgem press release on approval correctly ) from Peterhead to Drax site in Yorskhire - another c300m DC link - sea and land.

And the new HVDC link to Norway - longer than any of those = c450miles

So even London and SE well within reach of Southern Scotland if need be.

MattMattMattUK

Fair

Scot_39 said:

dunstonh said:

It doesn't matter how many wind farms there are, it's the surplus energy that matters, and most of the surplus energy is transferred from the north of Scotland to the south.

It doesnt get that far south as distance from generation matters.

 

If the demand and the cost basis for investment is there - the power can be shifted if need be.

And there already is an existing HVDC link from Scotland to Wales (c260m) and as far as I can tell - and another upto 3 scheduled from Scotland To England on the east coast - 1 (EGL2) - possibly now 2 cables - original plan was 1 - if read Ofgem press release on approval correctly - from Peterhead to Drax site in Yorskhire - another c300m DC link - sea and land.

And the new HVDC link to Norway - longer than any of those = c450miles

So even London and SE well within reach of Southern Scotland if need be.

I agree in general, I think that Dunstonh was point out that it is not the case that electricity not pushed into the National Grid in Scotland and used by people in Cornwall, the network is more complicated than that (as you seem to fully understand) and even with the HVDC links is not possible the way many assume it is. Many seem to think that electricity can just be shoved in at any point and taken out at any other point and almost entirely ignoring transmission losses, let alone the overall network architecture. 

Scot_39

Most people outside power engineering - let alone the generation / grid industry - aren't all that interested in complexities as a rule.

Ironic given they are the ones actually paying the costs to join up the ever increasing number of often under-delivering - for hours, days and even months on end - renewables projects.

And much of the licensed renewables is not solely in Scotland or potentially as importantly Island waters (given one of the DC links to support EGL2 is from Shetland - and they frequently - and as of 2020 island council policy to investigate the matter in detail - have called for independence from Holyrood).

But generation capacity in the south's mismatch with demand has been a real issue at times.  And it was the risk the SE and London grid area might potential collapse (not just a low voltage period / brown out) - that in part made NG pay over £9500 per MWh on Belgian link last summer.

sevenhills

We don't pay different road tax, depending on how much is spent on roads in my local area. It's decided on what the government think is our biggest challenge, climate change.
If we based the standing charge on combatting climate change, it would be set at zero and all the revenue required raised via the unit cost.
That would also aid the poor, because the rich would heat their large houses and power multiple electric cars, paying more.

SnakePlissken

Rip off

Scot_39 said:

SnakePlissken said:

mac.d said:

dealyboy said:

... it's a flat rate.

Would you consider flat rate income tax fair? or council tax? or car tax? ... paying the same as everybody else.

It should be a percentage ... perhaps 5% to replace the VAT.

It's not really a flat rate though is it? I know they use the infrastructure excuse for more remote parts of the country, but why should someone in Edinburgh or Liverpool pay so much more than someone in London?

With the new rates, someone in south of Scotland or north Wales has to pay £60+ more a year than someone in east of England. Someone in the north of Scotland has to pay £75 more than someone in London. Particularly galling for those in the north who have not only colder climate and so need to spend more, but watch as all the surplus green energy is transferred south to those who are paying less.

Its not just the standing charge, its the connection charges for power generation in Scotland are higher than london. Yet majority of the  renewable generation is in Scotland, with another 10gw being added over next few years.

At least very soon, we will see a scottish grid controlled by a scottish government. Not a uk one that looks after its buddies.

Goodbye rip off UK!

Scotland - like the rest of the UK - despite SNP promises - operates the same renewables licensing scheme as rest of UK.

So any and all production - renewables etc - is owned by private companies - most not based on Scotland.

And they are making plans to export it - by the GW.

The Eastern HVDC links - the second of which looks to be being upgraded to 4GW / 2 links - including a link from the Islands to NE, NE to Peterhead and 2 Peterhead to N England (drax site at ???) - approved by Ofgem Nov/Dec 22.

Supplements phase 1 of the Eastern Link.

And that supplements the existing Western Link to Wales in use since 2019.

If all go operation - exporting over 7 GW of power.

Once independent Scotland controls licensing.

You may not be aware that Norway nationalised majority of oil and gas production by raising efffective tax to 90% at which majority of licences were handed back to norwegian government. Which included the platforms and infrastructure.

in 1974 the Norwegian government announced to a delegation of oil companies that they were raising the level of taxation on petroleum profits to 90 per cent from 50. After the shouting had died down, the minister expressed disappointment that some of them did not walk away from their offshore leases. “We should have taken more,” he admonished his bureaucrats in full view of the enraged oil executives.

https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2014/03/10/Thatcherism-Verdict/

And tax rate is still 78% unlike UKs giveaway.

And a government in an independent scotland can tax these exports, by kw exported if it so chooses.
Lets call it an export tax.

Or if it wished have a generation tax, thats the thing about governments they make the laws including tax laws. Companies can choose to take it or leave it

MattMattMattUK

Fair

sevenhills said:

We don't pay different road tax, depending on how much is spent on roads in my local area. It's decided on what the government think is our biggest challenge, climate change.
If we based the standing charge on combatting climate change, it would be set at zero and all the revenue required raised via the unit cost.
That would also aid the poor, because the rich would heat their large houses and power multiple electric cars, paying more.

It would screw the poor, because "the rich" would (and indeed already are) install large solar installations, battery backups, wind turbines on country estates etc. and drive electric cars and heat their homes using heat pumps. There is a very wealthy town near me, the biggest houses are covering the south facing roof with solar, far more than 4kW capacity. The poor, in poorly insulated homes, home much more often, without the ability to install generation capacity. 

Even Sunak, people are saying that he had to have the electricity connection to his house upgraded to provide enough electricity to heat his pool, that connection works both ways. He has a lot of land well suited to a large solar installation as well as multiple ideal sites for wind turbines which would meet both his property's needs and provide a substantial surplus to export. 

ariarnia

Fair

sevenhills said:

We don't pay different road tax, depending on how much is spent on roads in my local area. 

part of your council tax goes towards road repairs in your area. even if you dont have a car at all. 

dealyboy

Rip off

ariarnia said:

sevenhills said:

We don't pay different road tax, depending on how much is spent on roads in my local area. 

part of your council tax goes towards road repairs in your area. even if you dont have a car at all. 

... road tax is not flat rate ... we who drive do pay different vehicle tax from £0 to £2,365 dependent on emissions plus an extra £500 for vehicles with a list price of over £40k.

... council tax is rated on the notional value of the property in which you live as an indicator of your wealth, but is flawed because it includes renters. (I once lived in a Band H, renting).

The point is we all contribute in a mix of our implied ability to pay and by our implied usage/impact.

dealyboy

Rip off

By the way ... I think we should thank our sponsor  .