rent guarantor for sister

hungry_hippo

Hi

Last year, I was a joint rent guarantor for my sister who is on benefits and works part time (she can't work full time due to illness).  My mum had always previously been her rent guarantor, however she had to move into a new house last year due to her landlord selling, and the new agents wanted a second guarantor, as my mum's pension wasn't high enough.  The tenancy was meant to go to periodic after the initial fixed 12 month term  i.e. rolling month by month

I found out last week that a few months ago, my sister signed up for another 12 month tenancy agreement after her term was up, as she wanted the security of living somewhere for 12 months.  My mum had been given something to sign but she thought it was just a rent increase (she didn't see the attached letting agreement email so just signed it!).  I had nothing sent through to me.  I've just checked her new 12 month tenancy agreement, and there's now just my mum who is guarantor, and it's all been signed by the landlord, letting agent, my mum and sister.

This might sound like a bit of an obvious question, but I assume that means I'm no longer a rent guarantor and that the signing of the new tenancy agreement means the old one where I was guarantor is no longer valid?  Just seems a bit odd that a big personal financial commitment like that can change without me even been told by the letting agents.  I'm hoping it's not a mistake but I've definitely read over the new agreement and there's just 1 guarantor now.

Just need to know as I'm moving house next year and I know it would affect my mortgage affordability and I'd have to declare it, if I was still bound by the guarantor agreement I signed under the original tenancy agreement
 
thanks
 

_Penny_Dreadful

hungry_hippo said:

Hi

Last year, I was a joint rent guarantor for my sister who is on benefits and works part time (she can't work full time due to illness).  My mum had always previously been her rent guarantor, however she had to move into a new house last year due to her landlord selling, and the new agents wanted a second guarantor, as my mum's pension wasn't high enough.  The tenancy was meant to go to periodic after the initial fixed 12 month term  i.e. rolling month by month

I found out last week that a few months ago, my sister signed up for another 12 month tenancy agreement after her term was up, as she wanted the security of living somewhere for 12 months.  My mum had been given something to sign but she thought it was just a rent increase (she didn't see the attached letting agreement email so just signed it!).  I had nothing sent through to me.  I've just checked her new 12 month tenancy agreement, and there's now just my mum who is guarantor, and it's all been signed by the landlord, letting agent, my mum and sister.

This might sound like a bit of an obvious question, but I assume that means I'm no longer a rent guarantor and that the signing of the new tenancy agreement means the old one where I was guarantor is no longer valid?  Just seems a bit odd that a big personal financial commitment like that can change without me even been told by the letting agents.  I'm hoping it's not a mistake but I've definitely read over the new agreement and there's just 1 guarantor now.

Just need to know as I'm moving house next year and I know it would affect my mortgage affordability and I'd have to declare it, if I was still bound by the guarantor agreement I signed under the original tenancy agreement
 
thanks
 

It certainly sounds as if you’re off the hook. There’s a new tenancy agreement in place, which you didn’t have sight of, and your mum’s head is now on the chopping block, so I’d say you are free and clear. 

hungry_hippo

_Penny_Dreadful said:

hungry_hippo said:

Hi

Last year, I was a joint rent guarantor for my sister who is on benefits and works part time (she can't work full time due to illness).  My mum had always previously been her rent guarantor, however she had to move into a new house last year due to her landlord selling, and the new agents wanted a second guarantor, as my mum's pension wasn't high enough.  The tenancy was meant to go to periodic after the initial fixed 12 month term  i.e. rolling month by month

I found out last week that a few months ago, my sister signed up for another 12 month tenancy agreement after her term was up, as she wanted the security of living somewhere for 12 months.  My mum had been given something to sign but she thought it was just a rent increase (she didn't see the attached letting agreement email so just signed it!).  I had nothing sent through to me.  I've just checked her new 12 month tenancy agreement, and there's now just my mum who is guarantor, and it's all been signed by the landlord, letting agent, my mum and sister.

This might sound like a bit of an obvious question, but I assume that means I'm no longer a rent guarantor and that the signing of the new tenancy agreement means the old one where I was guarantor is no longer valid?  Just seems a bit odd that a big personal financial commitment like that can change without me even been told by the letting agents.  I'm hoping it's not a mistake but I've definitely read over the new agreement and there's just 1 guarantor now.

Just need to know as I'm moving house next year and I know it would affect my mortgage affordability and I'd have to declare it, if I was still bound by the guarantor agreement I signed under the original tenancy agreement
 
thanks
 

It certainly sounds as if you’re off the hook. There’s a new tenancy agreement in place, which you didn’t have sight of, and your mum’s head is now on the chopping block, so I’d say you are free and clear. 

cheers, well my mum was already on it before, we just became joint guarantors.  Was just really surprised as they were so insistent that I be added before, I kind of think they've made a mistake in letting me drop out of it, but the agent and landlord both signed it without my name being in the guarantors on the new agreement.

I've been debating emailing them to check but I don't really want to make them think about putting me back onto it! My mum always pays part of my sister's rent anyway (not something I could ever afford to do esp with my mortgage going up recently), also looking to move next year and was worried about the affordability checks.  

ArbitraryRandom

I'm trying, but I can't see any reason why contacting them could realistically result in a negative outcome for you.

You can't legally be bound by an agreement you haven't had chance to see and sign in advance, so even if they did 'add your name back in' then it wouldn't be valid/enforceable. 

They could push/ask, but you can say no and I don't even think they could make any problems for your sister during the term of the contract, as the contract is signed/ the EA's affordability criteria won't be specified in the contract.

The only problem I could see is if your sister/mother lied about your mother's income so they would accept her as sole guarantor (which I don't think is the case here?) and that's not really on you...

I'd probably email them to ask because I like to have certainly re my financial commitments, but you could just as reasonably assume things are as you interpret - you weren't given sight of or asked to sign the new agreement so you are not a guarantor for it. 

hungry_hippo

thanks, I think I will email them tomorrow.  My sister said she was just asked if she wanted to sign up for another 12 months and agreed, she didn't know I wasn't a guarantor on the agreement (she's not good with legal docs and definitely won't have re-read it).  My mum didn't even read the new tenancy agreement because she didn't know it was an email attachment, she just e-signed the link.  There's definitely been no new income / assessment checks.

It would be good to have some written confirmation anyway but yeah, given it's all signed and in place, I can't see what they could do now linked to the new agreement, and why they would even bother -, my sister has had no payment issues in her first 12 months (or ever at any previous properties)

cheers

Annisele

I'm not sure I'd bother contacting them.

Right now, your understanding is that you're not liable - you signed up to guarantee the old tenancy, but a new one has since started. You don't have to declare the obligations you used to have to a potential mortgage lender.

If you contact them, then at best they'll say "yes, you're right, you're not liable". But at worst they'll say "you are liable, and the fact you've contacted us means you always knew you were liable". I doubt that argument would get far if it went to court, but I wouldn't poke that particular bear. I certainly wouldn't want to be telling a mortgage lender that there was an argument between me and some letting agent about whether I was liable for my sister's rent.

propertyrental

I can see absolutely no upside to contacting them. To achieve what? Apart from potentially opening a can of worms and and stressful back and forth of claim and denial.

However just to play devils advocate for a minute - have you still got a copy of the original guarantee agreement you signed? Wha exactly does it say? It is common, indeed usual, for the guarantee to continue for as long as the tenancy continues; not just the initial fixed term.....

vic_sf49

Have you read what your mum was sent, or is all of this via word of mouth from your family? If not, it might be worth her forwarding that to you.

Does that make it obvious that you're no longer a guarantor?

hungry_hippo

propertyrental said:

I can see absolutely no upside to contacting them. To achieve what? Apart from potentially opening a can of worms and and stressful back and forth of claim and denial.

However just to play devils advocate for a minute - have you still got a copy of the original guarantee agreement you signed? Wha exactly does it say? It is common, indeed usual, for the guarantee to continue for as long as the tenancy continues; not just the initial fixed term.....

Yes I've got both tenancy agreements.  Last years AST lists me as Guarantor (2). This years has not got my name on it anywhere and there is only Guarantor (1) (my mum)
I'm just going to post what last years say which I signed, the relevant parts below:

In reference to term and guarantors it says 

"The Landlord lets and the Tenant takes the Property for the Term at the Rent payable upon the

terms and conditions of this agreement.

1.4 This agreement is intended to create an assured shorthold tenancy as defined in Part 1 of the

Housing Act 1988 (including any subsequent amendments). These tenancies do not guarantee the

Tenant any right to remain in possession after the Fixed Element (subject to a minimum right of

occupancy of six months)."

1.6 Term

1.6.1 The Term shall be from and including Saturday 12 March 2022 to and including Saturday 11 March

2023 (the Fixed Element) and then the tenancy continues as a monthly contractual periodic (the

Periodic Element) until ended following either party giving notice. Please see clause 2.5 as it contains

important information about what you must do to end the tenancy.

1.6.2 The “Term” is to include any periodic continuation of the tenancy beyond the Fixed Element.

1.7.8 Rent Increase

1.7.8.1 If for any reason the Tenant remains in possession of the Property, or the lawful Tenant of the

Property, for more than 12 months, then the Rent may increase once each year.

1.7.8.2 The first increase will be on the first Rent Due Date more than 364 days after the commencement

date.

1.7.8.3 Subsequent increases will be on the first Rent Due Date more than 364 days since the last rent

increase.

1.7.8.4 In clauses 1.7.8.2 and 1.7.8.3 the Rent increase will be subject to a minimum of 2% to a

maximum of 5% for each complete year since the last rent increase month in line with local rents

2.5 Break Clause

2.5.1 This agreement creates a single tenancy that starts with a Fixed Element and then becomes

periodic. This would normally guarantee both parties the rights and obligations for the Fixed Element and

a minimum of one period. The following two clauses allow either party to terminate the agreement earlier

than that date, but not before the end of the Fixed Element (the date quoted in 1.6.1 as “to and including

(date)”).

2.5.2 The Landlord may bring the tenancy to an end at, or at any time after, the expiry of the Fixed

Element, subject to any statutory limitations, by giving to the Tenant at least two months’ written notice

stating that the Landlord requires possession of the Property. A notice under section 21 of the Housing

Act 1988 will suffice to implement this sub-clause.

Agent Managed with Guarantor - Page 8 of 17

2.5.3 The Tenant may bring the tenancy to an end at, or at any time after, the expiry of the Fixed

Element by giving to the Landlord at least one month’s written notice stating that the Tenant wishes to

vacate the Property. A letter will suffice to implement this sub-clause. While the tenancy is periodic the

one month’s written notice must expire the day before a Rent Due Date.

8 Guarantor

8.1 In consideration for the Landlord granting the Tenant a tenancy of the Property, the Guarantor

agrees to pay the Landlord and the Landlord’s Agent for any reasonable losses suffered as a result of

the Tenant failing to fulfil any of his obligations under this agreement or failing to pay Rent or other

monies lawfully due.

8.2 The Guarantor agrees to pay, on demand and in full, any overdue Rent or other monies lawfully due

under this agreement for the full Term and until vacant possession is given to the Landlord.

8.3 The Guarantor agrees to make payments lawfully due under clause 8.1 or 8.2 even after the Tenant

has returned possession of the Property to the Landlord.

The second agreement is identical to the first in that it starts a new 12 month fixed term that goes to periodic, has all the same clauses as above.  The only difference I can see is that my name isn't on it, there's only guarantor 1.  I think the argument is does the new tenancy agreement make the first one unenforcable.  If it does then I'm not guarantor.  The 1st one is no longer valid in my opinion because it hasn't reverted to periodic, it's gone back into a new 12 month contract.  Granted the 1st one does mention a rent increase but I can't see how they can say I'm guarantor on the second one when I've not signed up to it.

The only reason it came out was I asked my mum for a copy as I didn't understand why they could sign a new one without me signing it as well (I do now though of course!)

TBagpuss

Hmm - 'the term' is defined as "1.6.2 The “Term” is to include any periodic continuation of the tenancy beyond the Fixed Element."  It sound as though there was no periodic continuation, instead a new fixed term lease was signed.

I think that you could therefore argue that the term has ended. I am not sure how this fits with 8.2 ""for the full Term and until vacant possession is given to the Landlord" but I think that probably the fact that a new tenancy with different terms was signed would make it hard to argue that you were liable except in the event that there were any arrears or other issues arising from the original term. 

I wouldn't contact them, quite apart from anything else, I wouldn't want to draw it to their attention and have them start demanding that you re-sin, but also I would not trust an estate agent / letting agent to know the legal position or to give accurate information. 
I would be inclined to go with the fact that the tenancy you guaranteed has ended, the agreement was limited to the original AST and any periodic extension, and the fact that they required a fresh signature from you mum is a good indication that they didn't think the guarantee carried over s if they had, this would not have been necessary. 
 but if I were worried I'd probably get a second opinion from a lawyer. 

hungry_hippo

TBagpuss said:

Hmm - 'the term' is defined as "1.6.2 The “Term” is to include any periodic continuation of the tenancy beyond the Fixed Element."  It sound as though there was no periodic continuation, instead a new fixed term lease was signed.

I think that you could therefore argue that the term has ended. I am not sure how this fits with 8.2 ""for the full Term and until vacant possession is given to the Landlord" but I think that probably the fact that a new tenancy with different terms was signed would make it hard to argue that you were liable except in the event that there were any arrears or other issues arising from the original term. 

I wouldn't contact them, quite apart from anything else, I wouldn't want to draw it to their attention and have them start demanding that you re-sin, but also I would not trust an estate agent / letting agent to know the legal position or to give accurate information. 
I would be inclined to go with the fact that the tenancy you guaranteed has ended, the agreement was limited to the original AST and any periodic extension, and the fact that they required a fresh signature from you mum is a good indication that they didn't think the guarantee carried over s if they had, this would not have been necessary. 
 but if I were worried I'd probably get a second opinion from a lawyer. 

Thanks, yeah I've decided not to contact them, as you say, what the letting agent says may or may not be right and is just advisory, it's not going to change the legal position it will just be their opinion.  Also it won't be impartial in that they represent the interest of the landlord

I think I can tell a mortgage lender next year that I'm not a rent guarantor now and I've got both agreements to support my claim if it ever comes up, so it's not like I was trying to hide it.  Also if I was to contact the letting agent, they might note it down somewhere even if there's nothing they can do for this AST, then in 12 months time maybe they say they need me to be guarantor again or something!!  Which wouldn't have happened now I've dropped off it if I hadn't pointed it out!