VAT Charged by Caterers

Manxman_in_exile

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

tightauldgit said:

EJHome said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

EJHome said:

Hi All, I think this is far more complicated than I first realised. 
I'll try and provide some figures for clarity. Firstly I would assume they are Vat registered, as they are a large company and definitely intending to charge us Vat. 

Our Quote looks like follows.
TOTAL COSTS: Item Cost Food £ 2,761.00
Hire & Equipment £ 1,250.00
 Staff £ 1,925.00
Rubbish Removal £ 175.00
 Damage deposit £ 60.00
Street Food £ 250.00
TOTAL £ 6,421.00
VAT £ 1,284.20
TOTAL INC VAT £ 7,705.20

The Hire & Equipment line £1250 is a cost being paid direct to another company for glassware, crockery ect. I have seen this itemised quote which includes VAT in the £1250 figure. Our Caterer have clearly included this whole figure in their total and then added 20% vat. We are effectively paying vat on this line item twice is that correct? 

This might look like penny pinching but the whole thing is so expensive any saving helps. 

If you've agreed to pay £7705.20 then that's what you have to pay.

If you had any queries about how that amount was made up you should have resolved all that before agreeing to pay it.

Hire of glasses etc is not a disbursement.

Thanks for your thought about the disbursement or lack of. 

We haven't agreed to pay a set figure at all as our original quote was subject to change and it has changed a lot since we started often without clear communication which is why I am now questioning everything. 

What have you actually agreed to then? If you've signed up to give them carte blanche to just charge whatever they like then I dont think you have much comeback. 

When dealing with a consumer the trader should inform the consumer of the price, or how it is to be calculated, presumably to specifically avoid “ carte blanche to just charge whatever they like”

But isn't the problem here that the OP is querying a specific known part of the quote*?  ie the OP is querying how the Hire and equipment line of £1250 is made up?

I would argue that how it's made up is none of the OP's business.  If they thought it was excessive they shouldn't have accepted the quote* in the first place.

screech_78 said:

I don’t get this. Surely the company can charge whatever they want, the cost price is irrelevant. They’re a business. 

We purchase sofas for £400 and sell them for £1200 plus. It’s not against the law. 

Of course, if they’ve changed the price from the one quoted, that’s different. 

I'd agree with this.  The actual cost to the provider of "Hire and equipment" is irrelevant to whether or not the OP accepts their quote*.  If the OP thought it was too high they should have gone elsewhere...


*I'd have to say I'm struggling to understand what the OP is actually saying.  Are they saying that they accepted a quote of £7705.20 "subject to change" - in which case I don't see how they can query any specified individual part of that quote after they accepted it.  Or are they saying that they simply accepted an open-ended quote with no agreed price and that the "quote" of £7705.20 is actually the final bill?  (Sounds very unlikely to me...)

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what the OP is saying (or they aren't explaining it very well) but I can't help feeling that they're trying to renege on an agreement they've already made because they don't want to pay the amount they've agreed

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Manxman_in_exile said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

tightauldgit said:

EJHome said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

EJHome said:

Hi All, I think this is far more complicated than I first realised. 
I'll try and provide some figures for clarity. Firstly I would assume they are Vat registered, as they are a large company and definitely intending to charge us Vat. 

Our Quote looks like follows.
TOTAL COSTS: Item Cost Food £ 2,761.00
Hire & Equipment £ 1,250.00
 Staff £ 1,925.00
Rubbish Removal £ 175.00
 Damage deposit £ 60.00
Street Food £ 250.00
TOTAL £ 6,421.00
VAT £ 1,284.20
TOTAL INC VAT £ 7,705.20

The Hire & Equipment line £1250 is a cost being paid direct to another company for glassware, crockery ect. I have seen this itemised quote which includes VAT in the £1250 figure. Our Caterer have clearly included this whole figure in their total and then added 20% vat. We are effectively paying vat on this line item twice is that correct? 

This might look like penny pinching but the whole thing is so expensive any saving helps. 

If you've agreed to pay £7705.20 then that's what you have to pay.

If you had any queries about how that amount was made up you should have resolved all that before agreeing to pay it.

Hire of glasses etc is not a disbursement.

Thanks for your thought about the disbursement or lack of. 

We haven't agreed to pay a set figure at all as our original quote was subject to change and it has changed a lot since we started often without clear communication which is why I am now questioning everything. 

What have you actually agreed to then? If you've signed up to give them carte blanche to just charge whatever they like then I dont think you have much comeback. 

When dealing with a consumer the trader should inform the consumer of the price, or how it is to be calculated, presumably to specifically avoid “ carte blanche to just charge whatever they like”

But isn't the problem here that the OP is querying a specific known part of the quote*?  ie the OP is querying how the Hire and equipment line of £1250 is made up?

I would argue that how it's made up is none of the OP's business.  If they thought it was excessive they shouldn't have accepted the quote* in the first place.

Merely in reply to the poster who suggested such a thing (carte blanche pricing) was acceptable rather than anything else in the thread  

sheramber

DullGreyGuy said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:
Option 3 is offer to pay the Hire & Equipment directly to the other company but if something went wrong you may find you have to deal with any problems. Currently if you pay the company organising everything and the equipment is incorrect, doesn't turn up, etc they have to sort that out for you, if you paid direct then you might have a headache sorting out problems so it's not an idea I would suggest IMHO.  

The event has already happened, from what I read. As such its somewhat betting on a race that has already run... the £208 may have been a reasonable premium to pay for it to be their problem if anything had gone wrong but with nothing having gone wrong now isnt the time to say you dont want to pay it... like asking for your annual insurance premiums to be refunded in full because you didnt have a claim this year.

Obviously the OP can ask but feels late to be asking

I don't think it has happened as the OP stated 

'We've hired '  which could be for a future date

' We haven't agreed to pay a set figure at all as our original quote was subject to change and it has changed a lot since we started often without clear communication which is why I am now questioning everything. '  Unlikely to have happened without agreement to price

Manxman_in_exile

Going back to the original question:

EJHome said:

Help please. We've employed a Caterer for our wedding and there food is good but their admin/ quoting process has been awful. Leading me to question everything. 
They are hiring glassware and equipment from another company and I've seen the quote for this which includes VAT. 
Can our caterer also charge us VAT to the price of this quote as they seem to be? 
Feels like we're paying VAT twice. 

if the caterer has quoted the OP £1250 for hire of glassware and equipment, I don't see what business it is of the OP's either how much it actually costs the caterer to hire that glassware and equipment or whether the caterer is paying VAT on it.  If the OP thinks the quote is too high, get quotes from other caterers.  Either they are happy with £1250 or they aren't.

As @screech_78 has suggested, if I see a couch in JL being sold for £1200 it's none of my business whether the cost to JL was £400 or £800 or whether they were charged VAT on it.  It doesn't alter the fact that I will have to pay £1200 to JL if I want to buy it.

Either I think it's worth £1200 to me or I don't.  It's irrelevant what it cost JL unless I can buy it cheaper from the same supplier (which I doubt).

It's not at all clear to me from the OP's posts whether they've actually agreed a contract with this caterer or not.  If they haven't, I suggest that they get quotes from other caterers and choose whoever gives them the best deal - taking into account all variables including price, quality and reputation.

(PS  -  I'm still confused by the OP saying on the one hand that "We've employed a caterer for our wedding..." but on the other hand that "We haven't agreed to pay a set figure at all as our original quote was subject to change... "  I don't see how anyone would employ or hire a caterer on an open-ended basis with regard to price without being absolutely clear as to what could change and why.  But if they have agreed to something open-ended, and the £1250 hire element was already in the original quote and the OP accepted that quote "subject to change", I don't see how the OP can legitimately go back and challenge that £1250 now.  As I understand it, there's no suggestion of that figure changing, it formed part of the original quote and presumably the OP accepted it?

I could understand the OP wanting an explanation for items that are now increasing in price from the original quote, but from what I've read that the OP has posted, the £1250 forms part of the original contrcat that they accepted "subject to change", and it's not an element that the caterer is seeking to change.)

Manxman_in_exile

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

screech_78 said:

I don’t get this. Surely the company can charge whatever they want, the cost price is irrelevant. They’re a business. 

We purchase sofas for £400 and sell them for £1200 plus. It’s not against the law. 

Of course, if they’ve changed the price from the one quoted, that’s different. 

But presumably you don't show the customer the £400 invoice.

Profit is an obvious element of business but so is customer service, OP will hopefully not need the company again but if friends ask for a recommendation any ill feeling may affect whether that recommendation is given or not, it's human nature not to wish to feel like you've "over paid", for want of a better word, and the situation could have been avoided if the company hadn't let the OP see their supplier's invoice. 

As someone working in customer service hopefully it would be something you do "get"  

It's not clear to me how the OP knows how much the caterer is paying for glass and equipment hire.  They haven't said "The cater has shown me the invoice from their supplier", they've just said that they've seen it.

Even if the caterer has revealed the invoice to them (whether by intention or by mistake) I don't see what difference* it makes.  Either the OP is happy with the price of £1250 or they aren't.  If they aren't, they need to get quotes from alternative caterers.

If they've already "employed" or hired the caterer, then my view is that the time to query their price has passed.  All that should have been sorted prior to engaging them.

Perhaps I'm being unduly harsh on the OP.  Perhaps I've not understood the situation properly or perhaps they haven't explained it very well, but I can't help feeling there's an element of "buyer's remorse" here and they are trying to extricate themselves from a bad arrangement that they've entered into through an error of judgment.


*I'd agree it might make a difference if the agreement was along the lines that the OP would pay a price represented by the actual cost to the caterer plus an agreed mark up, but I've seen no evidence that that is the case here.

tightauldgit

Manxman_in_exile said:

Going back to the original question:

EJHome said:

Help please. We've employed a Caterer for our wedding and there food is good but their admin/ quoting process has been awful. Leading me to question everything. 
They are hiring glassware and equipment from another company and I've seen the quote for this which includes VAT. 
Can our caterer also charge us VAT to the price of this quote as they seem to be? 
Feels like we're paying VAT twice. 

if the caterer has quoted the OP £1250 for hire of glassware and equipment, I don't see what business it is of the OP's either how much it actually costs the caterer to hire that glassware and equipment or whether the caterer is paying VAT on it.  If the OP thinks the quote is too high, get quotes from other caterers.  Either they are happy with £1250 or they aren't.

Well yeah but that's the big IF - and it seems to be becoming clear that the OP doesn't really know what they signed up to so I've got diminishing sympathy for them to be able to claim anything - but if the original quote was £1250 then you're right. But if the original quote was 'Hire of Glassware at cost - estimate £1250' then the OP has grounds to complain that the caterer is charging them more than cost by including the VAT. Or if the original quote was £1050 and the caterer is now saying actually it's going to be £1250 because they've misread the invoice then again there's grounds to complain. 

Equally if the original quote was 5000 and now its 7000 then I think it's reasonable to ask the caterer to explain the differences. 

It's all going to come down to what was agreed and what the terms are and unless we see them we won't really know. And I now suspect that even if we saw what was signed then it still probably wouldn't explain it all. So probably learning point No 1 is don't sign up to a contract without either a firm price or a detailed understanding of how the final price is going to be calculated. 

Manxman_in_exile

tightauldgit said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

Going back to the original question:

EJHome said:

Help please. We've employed a Caterer for our wedding and there food is good but their admin/ quoting process has been awful. Leading me to question everything. 
They are hiring glassware and equipment from another company and I've seen the quote for this which includes VAT. 
Can our caterer also charge us VAT to the price of this quote as they seem to be? 
Feels like we're paying VAT twice. 

if the caterer has quoted the OP £1250 for hire of glassware and equipment, I don't see what business it is of the OP's either how much it actually costs the caterer to hire that glassware and equipment or whether the caterer is paying VAT on it.  If the OP thinks the quote is too high, get quotes from other caterers.  Either they are happy with £1250 or they aren't.

Well yeah but that's the big IF - and it seems to be becoming clear that the OP doesn't really know what they signed up to so I've got diminishing sympathy for them to be able to claim anything - ... 

I'm afraid that's how I feel...

tightauldgit said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

Going back to the original question:

EJHome said:

Help please. We've employed a Caterer for our wedding and there food is good but their admin/ quoting process has been awful. Leading me to question everything. 
They are hiring glassware and equipment from another company and I've seen the quote for this which includes VAT. 
Can our caterer also charge us VAT to the price of this quote as they seem to be? 
Feels like we're paying VAT twice. 

if the caterer has quoted the OP £1250 for hire of glassware and equipment, I don't see what business it is of the OP's either how much it actually costs the caterer to hire that glassware and equipment or whether the caterer is paying VAT on it.  If the OP thinks the quote is too high, get quotes from other caterers.  Either they are happy with £1250 or they aren't.

... So probably learning point No 1 is don't sign up to a contract without either a firm price or a detailed understanding of how the final price is going to be calculated. 

Quite.

screech_78

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

screech_78 said:

I don’t get this. Surely the company can charge whatever they want, the cost price is irrelevant. They’re a business. 

We purchase sofas for £400 and sell them for £1200 plus. It’s not against the law. 

Of course, if they’ve changed the price from the one quoted, that’s different. 

But presumably you don't show the customer the £400 invoice.

Profit is an obvious element of business but so is customer service, OP will hopefully not need the company again but if friends ask for a recommendation any ill feeling may affect whether that recommendation is given or not, it's human nature not to wish to feel like you've "over paid", for want of a better word, and the situation could have been avoided if the company hadn't let the OP see their supplier's invoice. 

As someone working in customer service hopefully it would be something you do "get"  

I don’t doubt that you know more than consumer law than me, but sorry, I still don’t get it. We had a situation where a customer service agent offered the customer an item (I believe it was a sofa) at cost price. It wasn’t in a colour or fabric that we stocked, but the supplier could do it and emailed us with the cost price. The agent then told the customer this price. The difference in cost vs. sale was £800. As a goodwill gesture, we went half on this with the customer but we didn’t have to. 

This sounds like an event where possibly numbers were changing regularly and so final price couldn’t be agreed until nearer the time. That was certainly the case with our wedding. Final numbers were only advised on a couple of days before and we got the bill from the caterers after.

I just don’t see how it’s relevant what the cost price was to the supplier. It’s their business what they charge, although I do appreciate that we don’t have the full facts from the OP on exactly what was agreed or how costs would be decided. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

screech_78 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

screech_78 said:

I don’t get this. Surely the company can charge whatever they want, the cost price is irrelevant. They’re a business. 

We purchase sofas for £400 and sell them for £1200 plus. It’s not against the law. 

Of course, if they’ve changed the price from the one quoted, that’s different. 

But presumably you don't show the customer the £400 invoice.

Profit is an obvious element of business but so is customer service, OP will hopefully not need the company again but if friends ask for a recommendation any ill feeling may affect whether that recommendation is given or not, it's human nature not to wish to feel like you've "over paid", for want of a better word, and the situation could have been avoided if the company hadn't let the OP see their supplier's invoice. 

As someone working in customer service hopefully it would be something you do "get"  

I don’t doubt that you know more than consumer law than me, but sorry, I still don’t get it. We had a situation where a customer service agent offered the customer an item (I believe it was a sofa) at cost price. It wasn’t in a colour or fabric that we stocked, but the supplier could do it and emailed us with the cost price. The agent then told the customer this price. The difference in cost vs. sale was £800. As a goodwill gesture, we went half on this with the customer but we didn’t have to. 

This sounds like an event where possibly numbers were changing regularly and so final price couldn’t be agreed until nearer the time. That was certainly the case with our wedding. Final numbers were only advised on a couple of days before and we got the bill from the caterers after.

I just don’t see how it’s relevant what the cost price was to the supplier. It’s their business what they charge, although I do appreciate that we don’t have the full facts from the OP on exactly what was agreed or how costs would be decided. 

It's relevant because the company's future customers may well be at the event and when they say to OP "hey your wedding was wonderful who did you use" a happy customer will gladly tell their friends to use them as well which saves a company in what I assume must be a highly competitive market at least some money in advertising. 

Nothing else should matter to the business, they are doing a great job to please their customer, in the hope of earning that word of mouth recommendation, in hope of making as much profit as possible, letting a customer see your supplier's invoice in this situation is foolish if you are going to charge that customer more.

Just to clarify I have said twice the company can mark it up if they wish (depending upon what was agreed), I simply don't find it surprising OP is asking the question. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Manxman_in_exile said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

screech_78 said:

I don’t get this. Surely the company can charge whatever they want, the cost price is irrelevant. They’re a business. 

We purchase sofas for £400 and sell them for £1200 plus. It’s not against the law. 

Of course, if they’ve changed the price from the one quoted, that’s different. 

But presumably you don't show the customer the £400 invoice.

Profit is an obvious element of business but so is customer service, OP will hopefully not need the company again but if friends ask for a recommendation any ill feeling may affect whether that recommendation is given or not, it's human nature not to wish to feel like you've "over paid", for want of a better word, and the situation could have been avoided if the company hadn't let the OP see their supplier's invoice. 

As someone working in customer service hopefully it would be something you do "get"  

It's not clear to me how the OP knows how much the caterer is paying for glass and equipment hire.  They haven't said "The cater has shown me the invoice from their supplier", they've just said that they've seen it.

Even if the caterer has revealed the invoice to them (whether by intention or by mistake) I don't see what difference* it makes.  Either the OP is happy with the price of £1250 or they aren't.  If they aren't, they need to get quotes from alternative caterers.

If they've already "employed" or hired the caterer, then my view is that the time to query their price has passed.  All that should have been sorted prior to engaging them.

Perhaps I'm being unduly harsh on the OP.  Perhaps I've not understood the situation properly or perhaps they haven't explained it very well, but I can't help feeling there's an element of "buyer's remorse" here and they are trying to extricate themselves from a bad arrangement that they've entered into through an error of judgment.


*I'd agree it might make a difference if the agreement was along the lines that the OP would pay a price represented by the actual cost to the caterer plus an agreed mark up, but I've seen no evidence that that is the case here.

Pretty much agree*, a competent business secure in the knowledge they are going to do their job to the delight of the customer should be getting their prices across as clear as possible, after all they shouldn't have anything to hide.

Maybe they didn't and that's why OP is asking, maybe they did and OP didn't "keep up" with the numbers and is now questioning just because they saw the invoice, no idea as we haven't had the info really so can only cover it from both sides  

*The price should have been sorted beforehand but that is the responsibility of the business, if they failed to provide the total price of the goods or services inclusive of taxes, or where the nature of the goods or services is such that the price cannot reasonably be calculated in advance, the manner in which the price is to be calculated, then the consumer isn't bound by the contract (whatever that means, I don't know).