Installing spotlights in living room with joists

35har1old

ashe said:

35har1old said:

ashe said:

35har1old said:

ashe said:

Hello, 

curious about how or even if this is possible. 

We currently have 2 light points in our living room and would rather have a few spotlights instead 

I've done a crude drawing here of which way the joists run. Are we basically limited to positions in line with the joists or is there some technique to non-destructively add them to other positions? We have laminate flooring upstairs so not easy to access from above. 

If this is a 2 storied house the correct way of installing electrical cables is to lift section of flooring above to enable drilling of joist at least 80mm from top of joist to avoid accidentally hitting the new cables when reinstating the flooring.This will let you go at right angles to the joist and you are then free to place spotlights anywhere in room by fishing cables from the spotlight holes back to the current position of light fitting.This avoids making holes in you finished ceiling. Even well patch holes tend to be seen unless you are into papering the ceiling 
Sorry I missed the bit about laminate flooring
The first thing the current ceiling fitting is secured to a batten so to gaining excess to make a connection is going to require a hole. Which will require  repairing If the plasterboard can't be secured by nails if will require to be stuck to either side of the hole creating a aera 12mm deep to be Patched Once the stuck area has set.You could end up with a lot of patches of this nature to place downlights anywhere else other than in line with the current fitting

I don't think the holes will be a problem; we had downlights installed in our bedroom and I did the remedial work not the ceiling myself and I am pretty happy with how it panned out 

Were you able to do the work from above in you case?

That was in the loft so yes, but I mean holes in the ceiling I'm confident I can sort that those out if they're needed 

i don't think taking up laminate and relaying is an option to get access from above so looking at ways to sort it with access from below 

If you are going to fit them yourself check your insurance policy
Isolate lighting circuit and possibly plug circuit for safety when cutting the holes
Downlights should be positioned centrally between joist.
You may come across in the central area of room a line of braces between joist blocking the route or even several rows
Visit Image of joist

dil1976

grumbler said:

dil1976 said:

grumbler said:

tacpot12 said:

You will probably need to route cables through the joists and this could be tricky unless you have a right angled drill or drill attachment. You need to know where it is safe to drill through the joist, and also how to isolate the existing lighting circuit. It's quite likely that you will have to cut holes in your ceiling to get the drill into the ceiling, although you might be able to drill via the holes for the downlighters in some cases.

I think it's more common to make small notches at the bottom of joist then making holes in the plasterboard for drilling through the joists.

You shouldnt make notches in the bottom of joists just the top to help keep the strength.

https://www.eden.gov.uk/planning-and-building/building-control/building-control-guidance-notes/notches-and-holes/

I know. We are talking about very small ones here - for lighting cables.

We should never drive faster than 70 either. Do we?

So you know something is incorrect and can cause future issues but gave it as advice! 

ashe

35har1old said:

ashe said:

35har1old said:

ashe said:

35har1old said:

ashe said:

Hello, 

curious about how or even if this is possible. 

We currently have 2 light points in our living room and would rather have a few spotlights instead 

I've done a crude drawing here of which way the joists run. Are we basically limited to positions in line with the joists or is there some technique to non-destructively add them to other positions? We have laminate flooring upstairs so not easy to access from above. 

If this is a 2 storied house the correct way of installing electrical cables is to lift section of flooring above to enable drilling of joist at least 80mm from top of joist to avoid accidentally hitting the new cables when reinstating the flooring.This will let you go at right angles to the joist and you are then free to place spotlights anywhere in room by fishing cables from the spotlight holes back to the current position of light fitting.This avoids making holes in you finished ceiling. Even well patch holes tend to be seen unless you are into papering the ceiling 
Sorry I missed the bit about laminate flooring
The first thing the current ceiling fitting is secured to a batten so to gaining excess to make a connection is going to require a hole. Which will require  repairing If the plasterboard can't be secured by nails if will require to be stuck to either side of the hole creating a aera 12mm deep to be Patched Once the stuck area has set.You could end up with a lot of patches of this nature to place downlights anywhere else other than in line with the current fitting

I don't think the holes will be a problem; we had downlights installed in our bedroom and I did the remedial work not the ceiling myself and I am pretty happy with how it panned out 

Were you able to do the work from above in you case?

That was in the loft so yes, but I mean holes in the ceiling I'm confident I can sort that those out if they're needed 

i don't think taking up laminate and relaying is an option to get access from above so looking at ways to sort it with access from below 

If you are going to fit them yourself check your insurance policy
Isolate lighting circuit and possibly plug circuit for safety when cutting the holes
Downlights should be positioned centrally between joist.
You may come across in the central area of room a line of braces between joist blocking the route or even several rows
Visit Image of joist

I wouldn't be doing this myself, we have a good electrician but just trying to understand the art of the possible before we get him over. He doesn't do any remedial work on plaster or walls though, which is fine 

there are already two rows where there are lights but these are on different switches. Doesn't matter as we will use zigbee bulbs to control via home assistant anyway, but suppose woukd have made it easier if on the same switch as would have meant there may have been a route for wires already 

grumbler

dil1976 said:

grumbler said:

dil1976 said:

grumbler said:

tacpot12 said:

You will probably need to route cables through the joists and this could be tricky unless you have a right angled drill or drill attachment. You need to know where it is safe to drill through the joist, and also how to isolate the existing lighting circuit. It's quite likely that you will have to cut holes in your ceiling to get the drill into the ceiling, although you might be able to drill via the holes for the downlighters in some cases.

I think it's more common to make small notches at the bottom of joist then making holes in the plasterboard for drilling through the joists.

You shouldnt make notches in the bottom of joists just the top to help keep the strength.

https://www.eden.gov.uk/planning-and-building/building-control/building-control-guidance-notes/notches-and-holes/

I know. We are talking about very small ones here - for lighting cables.

We should never drive faster than 70 either. Do we?

So you know something is incorrect and can cause future issues but gave it as advice! 

No, I just stated the fact that I saw this and it didn't cause any issues. In my house I'd make a 5mm notch without any doubts, especially if i's away from the middle of the joist, but I'm not a big fan of recessed downlights. It's just fashion that comes and goes.

Most building regulations are HUGE overkill.

Likewise I saw UK motorways moving at 75-80 where there were no speed cameras.

Sarahspangles

The previous owners of my house fitted their own and as a result we have two rooms where they don’t line up to any sort of grid which looks really amateur, and another where the ceiling has been visibly patched and then artexed as I understand they went through a copper pipe during installation.

mi-key

dil1976 said:

grumbler said:

tacpot12 said:

You will probably need to route cables through the joists and this could be tricky unless you have a right angled drill or drill attachment. You need to know where it is safe to drill through the joist, and also how to isolate the existing lighting circuit. It's quite likely that you will have to cut holes in your ceiling to get the drill into the ceiling, although you might be able to drill via the holes for the downlighters in some cases.

I think it's more common to make small notches at the bottom of joist then making holes in the plasterboard for drilling through the joists.

You shouldnt make notches in the bottom of joists just the top to help keep the strength.

https://www.eden.gov.uk/planning-and-building/building-control/building-control-guidance-notes/notches-and-holes/

Taking a 10 - 20mm notch out of the bottom of a 2x4"  joist makes no noticable different to the structural strength

SpudGunPaul

mi-key said:

dil1976 said:

grumbler said:

tacpot12 said:

You will probably need to route cables through the joists and this could be tricky unless you have a right angled drill or drill attachment. You need to know where it is safe to drill through the joist, and also how to isolate the existing lighting circuit. It's quite likely that you will have to cut holes in your ceiling to get the drill into the ceiling, although you might be able to drill via the holes for the downlighters in some cases.

I think it's more common to make small notches at the bottom of joist then making holes in the plasterboard for drilling through the joists.

You shouldnt make notches in the bottom of joists just the top to help keep the strength.

https://www.eden.gov.uk/planning-and-building/building-control/building-control-guidance-notes/notches-and-holes/

Taking a 10 - 20mm notch out of the bottom of a 2x4"  joist makes no noticable different to the structural strength

You like say you should only notch the top.

35har1old

mi-key said:

dil1976 said:

grumbler said:

tacpot12 said:

You will probably need to route cables through the joists and this could be tricky unless you have a right angled drill or drill attachment. You need to know where it is safe to drill through the joist, and also how to isolate the existing lighting circuit. It's quite likely that you will have to cut holes in your ceiling to get the drill into the ceiling, although you might be able to drill via the holes for the downlighters in some cases.

I think it's more common to make small notches at the bottom of joist then making holes in the plasterboard for drilling through the joists.

You shouldnt make notches in the bottom of joists just the top to help keep the strength.

https://www.eden.gov.uk/planning-and-building/building-control/building-control-guidance-notes/notches-and-holes/

Taking a 10 - 20mm notch out of the bottom of a 2x4"  joist makes no noticable different to the structural strength

Downstairs joist are normally 8x1.5  (122 mm x 38 mm)

grumbler

35har1old said:

mi-key said:

dil1976 said:

grumbler said:

tacpot12 said:

You will probably need to route cables through the joists and this could be tricky unless you have a right angled drill or drill attachment. You need to know where it is safe to drill through the joist, and also how to isolate the existing lighting circuit. It's quite likely that you will have to cut holes in your ceiling to get the drill into the ceiling, although you might be able to drill via the holes for the downlighters in some cases.

I think it's more common to make small notches at the bottom of joist then making holes in the plasterboard for drilling through the joists.

You shouldnt make notches in the bottom of joists just the top to help keep the strength.

https://www.eden.gov.uk/planning-and-building/building-control/building-control-guidance-notes/notches-and-holes/

Taking a 10 - 20mm notch out of the bottom of a 2x4"  joist makes no noticable different to the structural strength

Downstairs joist are normally 8x1.5  (122 mm x 38 mm)

To be pedantic, 8''=203mm

theonlywayisup

35har1old said:

mi-key said:

dil1976 said:

grumbler said:

tacpot12 said:

You will probably need to route cables through the joists and this could be tricky unless you have a right angled drill or drill attachment. You need to know where it is safe to drill through the joist, and also how to isolate the existing lighting circuit. It's quite likely that you will have to cut holes in your ceiling to get the drill into the ceiling, although you might be able to drill via the holes for the downlighters in some cases.

I think it's more common to make small notches at the bottom of joist then making holes in the plasterboard for drilling through the joists.

You shouldnt make notches in the bottom of joists just the top to help keep the strength.

https://www.eden.gov.uk/planning-and-building/building-control/building-control-guidance-notes/notches-and-holes/

Taking a 10 - 20mm notch out of the bottom of a 2x4"  joist makes no noticable different to the structural strength

Downstairs joist are normally 8x1.5  (122 mm x 38 mm)

Joists will be the size required for the span.