Do I need to change Power of Attorney?

SueC_2

elsien said:

EPA is just for finances. Dad needs to think about who he wants making health and welfare decision for him if he loses capacity, such as medical treatment decisions or decision about where he lives. You need the health/welfare LPA for that.

More details of the differences here.
Power of Attorney | LPA & EPA Compared | Specialist Solicitors | Bonallack & Bishop Solicitors (bishopslaw.co.uk)

LPA are easy enough to do yourselves online without a solicitor unless they are very complex. I printed off the forms for mum to look at and then and then we went through them a bit at a time, which allowed for a proper discussion of what her wishes would be if she could no longer express them. 

That's where I get a bit confused, as the one I have specifically states "with general authority to act on my behalf" and "in relation to all my property and affairs".  Which seems pretty far-reaching to me.

theoretica

I had a similar question and it ended in my parents getting LPAs...

elsien

SueC_2 said:

elsien said:

EPA is just for finances. Dad needs to think about who he wants making health and welfare decision for him if he loses capacity, such as medical treatment decisions or decision about where he lives. You need the health/welfare LPA for that.

More details of the differences here.
Power of Attorney | LPA & EPA Compared | Specialist Solicitors | Bonallack & Bishop Solicitors (bishopslaw.co.uk)

LPA are easy enough to do yourselves online without a solicitor unless they are very complex. I printed off the forms for mum to look at and then and then we went through them a bit at a time, which allowed for a proper discussion of what her wishes would be if she could no longer express them. 

That's where I get a bit confused, as the one I have specifically states "with general authority to act on my behalf" and "in relation to all my property and affairs".  Which seems pretty far-reaching to me.

Only for property and financial affairs. EPAs predate  the mental capacity act when health/welfare best interest decisions for people who lack capacity weren’t on anyone’s radar which is why that’s not specifically mentioned in the EPA
If dad does want someone he knows making those decisions instead of the paid professionals, he needs the health and welfare LPA. Otherwise as a family member you would be consulted, but you would not be making the final decision.

Another link which clarifies the area an EPA covers.

https://www.gov.uk/enduring-power-attorney-duties

And an NHS one for good measure.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/social-care-and-support-guide/making-decisions-for-someone-else/giving-someone-power-of-attorney/

 

bunnygo

EPA is indeed just for finances; NHS website notes that it has no relevance for any health and welfare decisions. Hence you need to create a health and welfare LPA for your dad. This costs £82, you fill the form in online and then have to print it for signatures in the right order. (improvements to this clumsy process are in the works) You will need a 'certificate provider' who is a person who has known your dad for a while and can sign to confirm that he is doing this of his own free will (you should not be present when that happens). Then you just need witnesses to all signatures. It will take 6 months to register it so do it ASAP.

As the EPA is 'joint and several' you are fine to continue to use it despite the death of the other attorney, and I see no reason to replace it with a property and finance LPA. The only problem would be if you die or lose capacity, which would leave your dad with no attorney. If there is someone else who could be 'joint and several' then it may just be worth doing a property and finance LPA to replace the EPA.

I suggest contacting each institution to get yourself properly set up; just having the EPA isn't good enough, you need to go through their process by contacting their power of attorney team. This will give you full access to accounts without needing to involve your dad at all. As examples, I have this set up with two separate banks for my surviving parent and can run everything; it is mostly online but if I speak to them I just tell them that the EPA is registered with them, they check, confirm and all is good. You can also use the EPA for utility companies, very handy when the phone conks out.

the EPA only needs to be registered if your dad loses capacity (hope not) - there may be a clause in it saying that it continues should that happen. I am hoping that I won't be in a position to give advice on that... Finally, although the EPA obviously ends at the death of the donor, don't throw it away as I think the probate people ask about it.

SueC_2

bunnygo said:

EPA is indeed just for finances; NHS website notes that it has no relevance for any health and welfare decisions. Hence you need to create a health and welfare LPA for your dad. This costs £82, you fill the form in online and then have to print it for signatures in the right order. (improvements to this clumsy process are in the works) You will need a 'certificate provider' who is a person who has known your dad for a while and can sign to confirm that he is doing this of his own free will (you should not be present when that happens). Then you just need witnesses to all signatures. It will take 6 months to register it so do it ASAP.

As the EPA is 'joint and several' you are fine to continue to use it despite the death of the other attorney, and I see no reason to replace it with a property and finance LPA. The only problem would be if you die or lose capacity, which would leave your dad with no attorney. If there is someone else who could be 'joint and several' then it may just be worth doing a property and finance LPA to replace the EPA.

I suggest contacting each institution to get yourself properly set up; just having the EPA isn't good enough, you need to go through their process by contacting their power of attorney team. This will give you full access to accounts without needing to involve your dad at all. As examples, I have this set up with two separate banks for my surviving parent and can run everything; it is mostly online but if I speak to them I just tell them that the EPA is registered with them, they check, confirm and all is good. You can also use the EPA for utility companies, very handy when the phone conks out.

the EPA only needs to be registered if your dad loses capacity (hope not) - there may be a clause in it saying that it continues should that happen. I am hoping that I won't be in a position to give advice on that... Finally, although the EPA obviously ends at the death of the donor, don't throw it away as I think the probate people ask about it.

I really appreciate this, thank you.  So much conflicting information online, but this explains it really simply.  I now have this firmly on my agenda to talk through with Dad next time I see him and get things underway for an LPA for health and welfare.  Thank you again.

bunnygo

glad to help - and also to have my position confirmed on last night's Martin Lewis show.

Final thought - being the attorney in this situation means that you are carrying out the wishes of the deceased parent by helping the survivor. I see it as an honour and also a small way of dealing with the grief of the loss.

SueC_2

bunnygo said:

glad to help - and also to have my position confirmed on last night's Martin Lewis show.

Final thought - being the attorney in this situation means that you are carrying out the wishes of the deceased parent by helping the survivor. I see it as an honour and also a small way of dealing with the grief of the loss.

Oh, I missed the show last night, I'll look it up on catchup.

You're right.... I have two siblings, and I was the one chosen for this role.  It's a bit of a double-edged sword, but yes, an honour.

Thanks again. x

elsien

Your father may wish to consider whether he wants more than one person on a new LPA or if not then to nominate a replacement attorney. Just because if anything happens to you and it then fails he may no longer be able to make another one. So a bit belt and braces. 

Some of that depends on family dynamics. Me and my brothers are all appointed to act jointly and independently because although parent preferred me, she didn't want it to look as if she trusted them less The reality is that we all know perfectly well that when it comes to it, I know parent the best and I will be the one making all the decisions particularly around health/welfare. Siblings prefer it that way. 

Replacement information here.
What to know about replacement attorneys for lasting powers of attorney (LPA) | The Gazette