question about deprivation of capital in relation to the other person

poppy12345

It’s got nothing to do with anyone else. The only person it involves is the person claiming the means tested benefits.
If they do have savings of more than £16,000 and they’re claiming means tested benefits then they will need to repay back the money they owe. 

giran said:

Enquiring regarding somebody else but I don't know them and their situation that well. 

You seem to know enough to be making enquiries. 

Spoonie_Turtle

giran said:

Enquiring regarding somebody else but I don't know them and their situation that well.  But if they are guilty then what would happen to them?  And am I guilty as an accessory, for enquiring for them? And is anybody at risk if they accept money from them?

I don't know where the law stands on you knowing about benefit fraud and not reporting it.  Moral obligation and legal obligation may be two different things - or they might be the same, like I said, I don't know. 

However before doing anything you would have to be quite certain they haven't declared it AND that they are definitely claiming means-tested benefits.   PIP/DLA/AA and some forms of ESA are not, and Tax Credits only count interest above £300.  Pension Credit has no set savings limit.  

Nothing would happen to anyone else receiving a gift from the person whose savings they are, however that person would be well advised not to give it away if they indeed are claiming means-tested benefits and haven't declared it, because what are they going to live on when their benefits are stopped and they have a hefty amount to pay back?

HillStreetBlues

Spoonie_Turtle said:

I don't know where the law stands on you knowing about benefit fraud and not reporting it.  Moral obligation and legal obligation may be two different things - or they might be the same, like I said, I don't know. 

Legally you have no duty to report any crime.

NedS

giran said:

Enquiring regarding somebody else but I don't know them and their situation that well.  But if they are guilty then what would happen to them?  And am I guilty as an accessory, for enquiring for them? And is anybody at risk if they accept money from them?

I guess you are asking if that by accepting the money, is the other person helping to facilitate the fraud? Are they knowingly participating in the activity to help facilitate the fraud, or are they merely accepting a gift?

elsien

Of course if it is a genuine gift, you won’t be giving it back. So the person would have all the issues around fraud and deprivation of capital,  and no money. Whereas if you’re just hiding it for them it’s not a gift and  that’s a slightly different scenario.

HillStreetBlues

NedS said:

giran said:

Enquiring regarding somebody else but I don't know them and their situation that well.  But if they are guilty then what would happen to them?  And am I guilty as an accessory, for enquiring for them? And is anybody at risk if they accept money from them?

I guess you are asking if that by accepting the money, is the other person helping to facilitate the fraud? Are they knowingly participating in the activity to help facilitate the fraud, or are they merely accepting a gift?

There must be a few ways of looking at it

1) By accepting the money as a gift (rather than storing the money for someone) won't they actually be stopping the fraud?
As the person won't now have the £30k.
So the fraud would have taken place from when the benefit started (if they had the £30k then)  until they no longer had the money.
Then from the date money given away they would then class it as deprivation of capital

2) They class the £30k as fraud money as the original £30k would have been spent.
So then the person that was given the £30k can lose the money by Proceeds of Crime Act  and be charged for money laundering under the same Act.

Alderbank

3) Conspiracy to pervert the course of justice?

HillStreetBlues

Alderbank said:

3) Conspiracy to pervert the course of justice?

Not in situation, bar far too high for that.

Newly_retired

HillStreetBlues said:

NedS said:

giran said:

Enquiring regarding somebody else but I don't know them and their situation that well.  But if they are guilty then what would happen to them?  And am I guilty as an accessory, for enquiring for them? And is anybody at risk if they accept money from them?

I guess you are asking if that by accepting the money, is the other person helping to facilitate the fraud? Are they knowingly participating in the activity to help facilitate the fraud, or are they merely accepting a gift?

There must be a few ways of looking at it

1) By accepting the money as a gift (rather than storing the money for someone) won't they actually be stopping the fraud?
As the person won't now have the £30k.
So the fraud would have taken place from when the benefit started (if they had the £30k then)  until they no longer had the money.
Then from the date money given away they would then class it as deprivation of capital

2) They class the £30k as fraud money as the original £30k would have been spent.
So then the person that was given the £30k can lose the money by Proceeds of Crime Act  and be charged for money laundering under the same Act.

The friend is not stopping the fraud by accepting the money. The claimant is still committing fraud by not declaring money which should be counted as their capital. Fraud is a crime. Maybe the friend is an accessory to the crime, I don't know. Point 2 may well be correct.
Deprivation of capital is something which is taken into account when entitlement to benefit is assessed. To my knowledge it is not in itself a crime, but is dealt with by making the claimant pay back benefits to which they were not entitled. 
If the claimant does not have the means to repay, they could well turn to the recipient of their gift to help them. Morally I would say there is an obligation to do so.

Spoonie_Turtle

Newly_retired said:

HillStreetBlues said:

NedS said:

giran said:

Enquiring regarding somebody else but I don't know them and their situation that well.  But if they are guilty then what would happen to them?  And am I guilty as an accessory, for enquiring for them? And is anybody at risk if they accept money from them?

I guess you are asking if that by accepting the money, is the other person helping to facilitate the fraud? Are they knowingly participating in the activity to help facilitate the fraud, or are they merely accepting a gift?

There must be a few ways of looking at it

1) By accepting the money as a gift (rather than storing the money for someone) won't they actually be stopping the fraud?
As the person won't now have the £30k.
So the fraud would have taken place from when the benefit started (if they had the £30k then)  until they no longer had the money.
Then from the date money given away they would then class it as deprivation of capital

2) They class the £30k as fraud money as the original £30k would have been spent.
So then the person that was given the £30k can lose the money by Proceeds of Crime Act  and be charged for money laundering under the same Act.

Deprivation of capital is something which is taken into account when entitlement to benefit is assessed. To my knowledge it is not in itself a crime, but is dealt with by making the claimant pay back benefits to which they were not entitled. 

You are correct it is not a crime, but there is no repaying of a benefit just for DoC.  They calculate the benefit as if the person still had the capital, so there would be nothing to pay back.

Repayment is for when there's been an overpayment, either due to a mistake made by the benefits agency or due to the claimant not notifying them of relevant information (deliberately or not).  Relevant in this situation but separate from the issue of DoC.