Extending the EPG at its current level for the 3 months April-June 2023 - For or Against?

michaels

Seems like there are better options for the £2.6bn than on a generalised reduction in utility bills, the majority of which will benefit those who can afford to pay anyway (for example Rishi Sunak would save much more on heating his swimming pool than 10 below average families would save on their spring heating bills).

Labour, the friend of those who can afford to spend the most, will no doubt be screaming blue murder about a failure to subsidise the richest most.  Is it the fault of the politicians or the press that our level of debate has fallen so far

I suspect the political calculation will be that it is £2.6bn well spent in terms of votes per pound whereas in terms of helping those in energy poverty the money could be much better targeted but would buy fewer votes.

Scot_39

The poorest households on UC are getting £900 help, which is not quite as much as this year (£650+£400 EBSS equiv?).

Most people use far less energy over summer.

Would rather any non targeted aid on rates was saved to next winter.

But actually believe EBSS is a more progressive route, even better if made "taxable" at higher rate - a bit like child benefit for those above 50k pa.

As it helps poorer households who typically use less - more in percentage terms.

It also stops giving £1000s in disproportionate aid to those very wealthy in the their large villas, who really don't need state aid. And although they typically pay more tax, they will just face the largest burden of taxes to pay it back with interest on top anyway (top 1% paye pay c30% income tax).

Or perhaps charge discounted lower unit rate for EPG / Ofgem allowances - then revert to market rate above

But for simplicity -  my vote would be let them raise cap by £500, and bring EBSS back next winter.

MattMattMattUK

Against - The headline figure of £3,000 will not apply in real terms as it is a low usage period of the year so even with the cap rising the per month cost will fall below current levels. However the additional borrowing required of £2.6 billion to cover it would go against the national debt which is already huge, the bet solution is not to borrow that money, or spend it on something with direct utility (education, fixing the pot holes in the road, more police officers etc.). 

Scot_39

ariarnia said:

i dont no about this one. we are coming off a fix 1 april so from a selfish view id like the current cap to stay as it means less of a jump for us. but at the same time we can manage with the price jump even with another 20% so... 

theres a lot of people who are worried and struggling. (and before anyone says that includes lots of people who dont qualify for the help because they cant navigate the benifit system or are just not quite eligible for the help/just above the cut of). and it still is quite cold some days/nights. and we've had snow in march before. 

so given its cheaper than the gov expected then id like them to keep it where it is BUT i wont have a problem if they dont or if they say it can stay where it is but its staying at that level longer after the price drops to bring back in some of the cash maybe?

That's the problem with focusing things like last years £650 and this years £900 only on those on certain means tested benefits.

The 100% loss of help for those struggling just above the cap.

But as energy prices fall below the EPG cap,  there may be moves to reduce that £900 significantly anyway - as it may have been set people paying pro rata on £3000 EPG - not an £800 lower Ofgem cap.


Other benefits like tax credits are tapered above thresholds, child benefit tax charge is tapered, there's no good reason for a hard cut off.

MattMattMattUK

dunstonh said:

4)  Middle earners and small businesses are being crucified to pay for it.     The UK has one of the lowest tax regimes for low earners in Europe.  Yet it has one of the highest for middle earners. 

The bottom two thirds of earners in the UK have the lowest effective rate of income taxation in the EU, the top third has the fifth highest, middle earners still pay low taxes compared to their European compatriots. 

dunstonh said:

It was published earlier in that year that for the first time ever, more than half of households take more from the Government than they pay in taxes.

52% of households receive more in cash benefits than they pay in taxes, less than a third of people make a net contribution in any one year, less than 10% of people make a net lifetime contribution, taxes are too low on everyone, but especially low and middle earners. 

dunstonh said:

The middle earning cashpoint machine is running on empty.     (that will take more overhaul than the EPG level but its a trend that doesnt end well).

Middle earners in the UK still pay low taxes compared to the rest of the EU, the major difference though is in the UK we have loaded up on personal debt, the rest of the EU saves up to buy far more than we do, in Germany for example cars are rarely bought on finance where as in the UK almost all are bought on finance or lease, finance for holidays is hardly ever used, in the UK 60% of holidays are bought on finance, in France and Germany credit card limits are far lower and it is rare to carry debt for long, unauthorised overdrafts will mean the bank closes your bank account etc. The UK population has lost it's financial responsibility. 

Scot_39

Where govts have lead - people have followed.

And govts of all colours, getting by on borrowing - deficits and debt.

22 consecutive years of deficits - in good and bad times.

wild666

I rarely use any lights as the light from the PC screen is enough to see what I'm doing on the PC, same when I have the games consoles on the light from the TV is enough to light up the screen. 
Most of my usage is associated with the freezer and fridge and other devices that I monitor on smart plugs, two thirds of my electric usage per month is monitored by smart plugs the only things not monitored are those that come direct from the mains like the shower or the washer that has to be plugged in behind on the wall under the work surface. 

gt94sss2

I support increasing the EPG to £3,000.

While this would lead to unit rates  increasing, important to note that during April - July energy use falls sharply which will limit the actual financial impact.

Showing price cap or EPG as an annual figure is not helpful given it now changes every 3 months.

superkoopauk

I am not sure about the seasonality argument.  A large percentage of customers pay a fixed DD amount and if that DD is reviewed in line with the £3000 level that wouldn't be good.

TheGardener

I think the support should be better targeted or fine tuned - at the moment you can heat your swimming pool or floodlight your tennis court or mansion gardens with subsidised electricity, that doesn't seem quite right and certainly doesn't encourage those who can afford to ignore their energy bills to reduce their consumption in the name of the environment or conservation of supplies.