Taking A Company to court but still need tech support from them

p4dstar

Jumblebumble said:

p4dstar said:

Alderbank said:

You have been very unlucky with all these separate problems from one supplier!

• Is this a consumer issue or B2B?
• What are the various parts, consumables equipment and 'items' you talk about?
• In view of the complexity, a timeline would be really useful, listing sequentially and giving date for each consecutive event. I realise this will be a long list.

Diesel fumes returning into the van? Regardless of the court case, absolutely your responsibility not to use at all until fixed, however long it takes

Thanks for getting back to me Alderbank. I originally wrote quite a detailed post but removed it as I'm not sure what I am allowed to post publicly. I'm sure I am fine if I don't name them etc.

This is a business to business transaction. I was a sole trader at the time of ordering though. My business is a window cleaning company and the supplier originally supplied me with a window cleaning system. I bought a second one for another van, then went back to them for some reels for the first van.

Last March I paid for an upgrade that included a Webasto heater for my first van. This was installed in June-July. There were a lot of problems but going through every one doesn't seem relevant. The actual installation was not completed in full, when I collected the van they had to agree to come out to me and finish off the work. They didn't have the consumables and parts ready and agreed to bring them when they finished off the install. They didn't bring the consumables & some of the parts. They also advised it best not to fit some parts. The total value of the parts and consumables is nearly £500.

There have been a handful of technical issues with the system. The leisure batteries supplied are failing. The diesel heater has an exhaust pointing at some roller guides and the rear of the van fills with unfiltered diesel. To explain, this only happens when the vehicle is stopped, the doors are open and there is a bulk head between the back and cab. Issues then began with the reels ordered the year before this but still under a 2 year warranty.

For the months after the install I had an ongoing dialogue with the customer services where they would provide support and detail what needed to be done. They have openly written about items owed and monies owed. Then nothing gets resolved and I start again. At the very end of November I advised if they didn't send the missing items and provide a credit or refund for the others I would be taking them to court. At this point customer services refused to speak to me. They gave me an email address for senior management and said all correspondence must be in writing. I wrote in and didn't get a response in December.

I sought advice from my credit card company who sent me back to them to see if I could get a resolution. I emailed again at the beginning of January and gave them a final ultimatum. They responded and started to provide tech support for the faulty items. I made it clear I no longer wanted the items outstanding and instead wanted a refund. Rather bizarrely they accused me of issuing a chargeback. This seems like complete gas lighting, I even had to call my credit card company and confirm. They advised it wasn't possible to charge back after 4 months. They ignored anything I said about this but continued to talk about the technical problems.

They agreed they need to send an engineer for some issues. They agreed to look at other issues but kept saying if it was found there is no fault I am liable for an engineer call out. I told them I didn't accept these additional terms. They told me they were standard and written in the user manual for the systems. So that is in the manual that you should receive when you have already bought the system. As I told them I have never received one of these manuals. I left this point by pointing out the engineer would already be there for the items they have agreed need to be fixed so a call out fee wouldn't be appropriate and that I simply don't accept "additional terms". If these terms were already in place I don't see why they need to be specifically mentioned in the email.

As they were ignoring my questions about the refund for the missing items I said I would treat them as two issues. Gave them a further few days to resolve the missing items or provide evidence of chargeback. When this wasn't received I applied to the courts. They have ignored my emails about tech support. They waited until the final hour on the final day to respond and requested a further 14 days.

Perhaps look at this from the other side
Suppose your leisure batteries are not failing but your alternator is assuming your alternator is nothing to do with the company you are suing
Who do you think should pay for the engineer to diagnose this?
What you are in effect saying to the supplier is that just because they are at your premises they should incur extra time in diagnosing issues that might or might be under warranty but not be paid for it if the fault lies elsewhere.

I can see that. If we're looking at it from the other side they would need to consider the time they have cost me, completely unnecessarily. I've sent videos in and then been asked to send it again. I've made countless phone calls... etc etc etc. If they already have terms stating customers will be charged if there is no fault found then why does it need to be written prominently in an email.

Also worth mentioning they have previously set a precedent by sending an engineer without the threat of charge. You need to note the part where they have accused me of charging back the money owed instead of dealing with the problems. They aren't a huge company, this accusation was made by their director. Would you not feel a little skeptical of such a company at that point?

p4dstar

Undervalued said:

Jumblebumble said:

p4dstar said:

Alderbank said:

You have been very unlucky with all these separate problems from one supplier!

• Is this a consumer issue or B2B?
• What are the various parts, consumables equipment and 'items' you talk about?
• In view of the complexity, a timeline would be really useful, listing sequentially and giving date for each consecutive event. I realise this will be a long list.

Diesel fumes returning into the van? Regardless of the court case, absolutely your responsibility not to use at all until fixed, however long it takes

Thanks for getting back to me Alderbank. I originally wrote quite a detailed post but removed it as I'm not sure what I am allowed to post publicly. I'm sure I am fine if I don't name them etc.

This is a business to business transaction. I was a sole trader at the time of ordering though. My business is a window cleaning company and the supplier originally supplied me with a window cleaning system. I bought a second one for another van, then went back to them for some reels for the first van.

Last March I paid for an upgrade that included a Webasto heater for my first van. This was installed in June-July. There were a lot of problems but going through every one doesn't seem relevant. The actual installation was not completed in full, when I collected the van they had to agree to come out to me and finish off the work. They didn't have the consumables and parts ready and agreed to bring them when they finished off the install. They didn't bring the consumables & some of the parts. They also advised it best not to fit some parts. The total value of the parts and consumables is nearly £500.

There have been a handful of technical issues with the system. The leisure batteries supplied are failing. The diesel heater has an exhaust pointing at some roller guides and the rear of the van fills with unfiltered diesel. To explain, this only happens when the vehicle is stopped, the doors are open and there is a bulk head between the back and cab. Issues then began with the reels ordered the year before this but still under a 2 year warranty.

For the months after the install I had an ongoing dialogue with the customer services where they would provide support and detail what needed to be done. They have openly written about items owed and monies owed. Then nothing gets resolved and I start again. At the very end of November I advised if they didn't send the missing items and provide a credit or refund for the others I would be taking them to court. At this point customer services refused to speak to me. They gave me an email address for senior management and said all correspondence must be in writing. I wrote in and didn't get a response in December.

I sought advice from my credit card company who sent me back to them to see if I could get a resolution. I emailed again at the beginning of January and gave them a final ultimatum. They responded and started to provide tech support for the faulty items. I made it clear I no longer wanted the items outstanding and instead wanted a refund. Rather bizarrely they accused me of issuing a chargeback. This seems like complete gas lighting, I even had to call my credit card company and confirm. They advised it wasn't possible to charge back after 4 months. They ignored anything I said about this but continued to talk about the technical problems.

They agreed they need to send an engineer for some issues. They agreed to look at other issues but kept saying if it was found there is no fault I am liable for an engineer call out. I told them I didn't accept these additional terms. They told me they were standard and written in the user manual for the systems. So that is in the manual that you should receive when you have already bought the system. As I told them I have never received one of these manuals. I left this point by pointing out the engineer would already be there for the items they have agreed need to be fixed so a call out fee wouldn't be appropriate and that I simply don't accept "additional terms". If these terms were already in place I don't see why they need to be specifically mentioned in the email.

As they were ignoring my questions about the refund for the missing items I said I would treat them as two issues. Gave them a further few days to resolve the missing items or provide evidence of chargeback. When this wasn't received I applied to the courts. They have ignored my emails about tech support. They waited until the final hour on the final day to respond and requested a further 14 days.

Perhaps look at this from the other side
Suppose your leisure batteries are not failing but your alternator is assuming your alternator is nothing to do with the company you are suing
Who do you think should pay for the engineer to diagnose this?
What you are in effect saying to the supplier is that just because they are at your premises they should incur extra time in diagnosing issues that might or might be under warranty but not be paid for it if the fault lies elsewhere.

Exactly this ^^^

OP, do you have a report from an expert clearly stating what is at fault?

It is unlikely you will win a court case without one. A civil case is decided on the balance of probabilities (effectively 51%). What evidence can you present to the judge that the items from this company are faulty plus, even if they are, can you show that they were not damaged by whatever you have connected to them?

There is currently no court case for the faulty items. The court proceedings relate solely to the items they have failed to supply or refund.

One of the faults was a leaking connection on the hose reel. They told me to replace this connection. I sought advice from a local engineering firm who looked it over and showed me how to change some seals. They pointed out what was causing the issue but cannot write me a report as this is a specialist item that very few people in the UK make.

If we're looking for a balance of probability I can show a fault. I can show that I have tried for months to get some help and that I'm willing to work with them. How can they prove this is my fault. I genuinely am happy to work with them.

p4dstar

powerful_Rogue said:

p4dstar said:

user1977 said:

p4dstar said:

pramsay13 said:

They don't have to provide tech support to you if they don't want to. If the support is something you have paid for they should refund but otherwise you can't force them. 

The items are under warranty. How can a company just decide not to provide support on items under warranty? I would accept a refund if they didn't want to provide tech support. I have made this clear to them.

That might be correct, but what's your remedy, other than going to court about that too? I think you need to accept an element of burning bridges if you choose to litigate.

Completely, those bridges are burned. The equipment they've supplied me with is worth over 10k. Surely you'll agree, a company can't just behave like this and leave any consumer out of pocket?

The thing is, you're not a consumer. You're a business. Do you not have business legal cover?

I don't think I have business legal cover... I could be wrong and I could have it automatically with my liability insurance. I know it was included in a policy previously. The purchase of the reels will run back over a previous policy period though so that could be a grey area.

With regards to being a consumer I am a sole trader. As far as I can see, unless someone can show me otherwise, this affords me the same protection as any other consumer. Some of the responses to this have simply been to shoot me down and tell me what I can't do. It's as if I'm some big business owner sitting in an ivory tower with a sense of entitlement. That couldn't be further from the truth! I'm a 38 year old father of 4 who started a small business. I needed a better work life balance to support my non verbal autistic son, particularly to be able to attend appointments etc. I have 2 employees who are paid above the living wage.... I hope that paints a picture for people taking me for a greedy business owner! Meanwhile the manufacturer in question has a horrible reputation for treating people how they have treated me. I was simply hoping for some advice on the best way to proceed. 

powerful_Rogue

p4dstar said:

powerful_Rogue said:

p4dstar said:

user1977 said:

p4dstar said:

pramsay13 said:

They don't have to provide tech support to you if they don't want to. If the support is something you have paid for they should refund but otherwise you can't force them. 

The items are under warranty. How can a company just decide not to provide support on items under warranty? I would accept a refund if they didn't want to provide tech support. I have made this clear to them.

That might be correct, but what's your remedy, other than going to court about that too? I think you need to accept an element of burning bridges if you choose to litigate.

Completely, those bridges are burned. The equipment they've supplied me with is worth over 10k. Surely you'll agree, a company can't just behave like this and leave any consumer out of pocket?

The thing is, you're not a consumer. You're a business. Do you not have business legal cover?

I don't think I have business legal cover... I could be wrong and I could have it automatically with my liability insurance. I know it was included in a policy previously. The purchase of the reels will run back over a previous policy period though so that could be a grey area.

With regards to being a consumer I am a sole trader. As far as I can see, unless someone can show me otherwise, this affords me the same protection as any other consumer. Some of the responses to this have simply been to shoot me down and tell me what I can't do. It's as if I'm some big business owner sitting in an ivory tower with a sense of entitlement. That couldn't be further from the truth! I'm a 38 year old father of 4 who started a small business. I needed a better work life balance to support my non verbal autistic son, particularly to be able to attend appointments etc. I have 2 employees who are paid above the living wage.... I hope that paints a picture for people taking me for a greedy business owner! Meanwhile the manufacturer in question has a horrible reputation for treating people how they have treated me. I was simply hoping for some advice on the best way to proceed. 

Consumer Rights Act doesn't apply to you as you purchased the items for business use.

See section 36 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/2/notes?view=plain

 You would need to look at the Sales of Goods Act.

p4dstar

powerful_Rogue said:

p4dstar said:

powerful_Rogue said:

p4dstar said:

user1977 said:

p4dstar said:

pramsay13 said:

They don't have to provide tech support to you if they don't want to. If the support is something you have paid for they should refund but otherwise you can't force them. 

The items are under warranty. How can a company just decide not to provide support on items under warranty? I would accept a refund if they didn't want to provide tech support. I have made this clear to them.

That might be correct, but what's your remedy, other than going to court about that too? I think you need to accept an element of burning bridges if you choose to litigate.

Completely, those bridges are burned. The equipment they've supplied me with is worth over 10k. Surely you'll agree, a company can't just behave like this and leave any consumer out of pocket?

The thing is, you're not a consumer. You're a business. Do you not have business legal cover?

I don't think I have business legal cover... I could be wrong and I could have it automatically with my liability insurance. I know it was included in a policy previously. The purchase of the reels will run back over a previous policy period though so that could be a grey area.

With regards to being a consumer I am a sole trader. As far as I can see, unless someone can show me otherwise, this affords me the same protection as any other consumer. Some of the responses to this have simply been to shoot me down and tell me what I can't do. It's as if I'm some big business owner sitting in an ivory tower with a sense of entitlement. That couldn't be further from the truth! I'm a 38 year old father of 4 who started a small business. I needed a better work life balance to support my non verbal autistic son, particularly to be able to attend appointments etc. I have 2 employees who are paid above the living wage.... I hope that paints a picture for people taking me for a greedy business owner! Meanwhile the manufacturer in question has a horrible reputation for treating people how they have treated me. I was simply hoping for some advice on the best way to proceed. 

Consumer Rights Act doesn't apply to you as you purchased the items for business use.

See section 36 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/2/notes?view=plain

 You would need to look at the Sales of Goods Act.

That's really helpful, thank you.

p4dstar

Just to summarise and make sure I haven't misunderstood....

• There are no issues with me contacting the company ref warranty items even though the courts are dealing with the other stuff!
• I am covered by section 75 with my credit card but need to show a breach of contract
• If I take them to court I need to prove on the balance of probability the issues are their fault.

If all of this is correct I would assume a section 75 would be my best course of action if I cannot get them to resolve the technical problems.

born_again

On S75 "Might be Covered" is the truth. As what is covered in the T/C & warrantee will come into play.

p4dstar

born_again said:

On S75 "Might be Covered" is the truth. As what is covered in the T/C & warrantee will come into play.

How do they determine this? I’ve spent my adult life using a credit card, based on Martin Lewis’ advice, for this sort of scenario. I completely understand you only have one side of the story here but taking what I’ve suggested above, does it not seem like this is the exact type of thing section 75 is designed for?

MobileSaver

p4dstar said:

born_again said:

p4dstar said:

Alderbank said:

You, or your legal advisors, need to look carefully at the T&Cs of the contract you agreed to. As a B2B transaction you do not have any of the additional rights granted to consumers under consumer laws.

When the supplier company have submitted their defence to the court (you will receive a copy of this) the judge will read each of your claims and their defence to that claim, one by one, and decide on the balance of probabilities whether each claim stands or fails. Very occasionally he might ask the parties for further information but that is not common for small claims.

For each claim he finds in your favour he will order the company to repay you. This might be the amount you have requested in your claim or he might reduce it for reasons he will state.
Recompense to you will be money. He will not order specific performance, i.e. he will not say they must provide technical support but he will say they must recompense you a specific sum for failing to provide the expected level of technical advice.

The court itself will not pay you any damages you are awarded. Ideally the company will pay you the award at this point. If it does not, you will have to take further measures which you will have to pay for.

Thanks Alderbank. I’m not sure if I’ve explained it properly. The court action is for just under £500. This is for goods not received and a refund not given. I have emails from the company and it’s pretty black and white. Their only defence to me has been to accuse me of charging back the monies. This is untrue and impossible, my card company confirmed this. I would accept whatever the judge decides on this but be baffled if it wasn’t to offer a full refund.

Secondary to this I still have faulty items. They are within their warranty period and they were sending emails back and forth discussing prior to court action for the other issue.

I guess my main questions at this point are;

- Are we obliged to cease contact once proceedings are opened (this would explain why they’ve ignored me) and would there be any issue with the fact I have contacted them about a different issue.

- With the faulty items I’m protected by section 75 as I paid on my card. Is this protection in anyway affected by the court case as these items were on the same order.

- If the courts settle this case is it possible to open another case for different items (on the same order) if required.

Why did card co say no chargeback?
Should have been a chargeback for non receipt on the part of the order not received. All they need is a invoice showing the cost of items not received.

I think you need to study S75. it does not as such cover faulty goods. It covers breach of contract & misrepresentation. 
For any S75 you are going to have to provide the T/C of this. Which you have already said you do not have.

This seems to be quite subjective but refusing technical support for an item that is in warranty seems to fit the bill quite clearly IMO?

Unless the contract/T&Cs/advert explicitly state that technical support is included with the purchase of each particular item then I cannot see on what basis you can claim breach of contract if support is refused.

So was technical support explicitly stated? Perhaps more to the point is what exactly do you mean by "technical support", what specifically are they refusing to do?

born_again

p4dstar said:

born_again said:

On S75 "Might be Covered" is the truth. As what is covered in the T/C & warrantee will come into play.

How do they determine this? I’ve spent my adult life using a credit card, based on Martin Lewis’ advice, for this sort of scenario. I completely understand you only have one side of the story here but taking what I’ve suggested above, does it not seem like this is the exact type of thing section 75 is designed for?

This is all going to be down to T/C & their terms with businesses.


Only way to find out is talk to your card provider & see what they say. As they will be the ones dealing with the case.