Small Claims rent arrears

Fabtasia

I'm hoping for some advice on small claims.

A bit of background, tenant has been served s21 and section 8. It is yet to go to court again. I served a section 21 and now have had to employ a solicitor as they had employed one and got it thrown out on a technicality. They have outstayed the end of the contract, have stopped paying rent and are claiming poverty - this is not the case but I can not prove this.

Rent arrears are under £10k but significant. 

What are any advantages of going to the small claims if I already have a section  8. Would I invalidate either if I did both?

Will a section 8 appear on a landlord search so that any future landlords don't get caught out (one of my main motivations for the small claim?).  I just don't want anyone else to go through this.

Are they more likely to pay if they get a small claim versus a section 8.

Is serving the section 21 and section 8, enough notice or do I need to wrote an additional letter to notify them that I will go to court.

Greatful for any help.

theartfullodger

Fabtasia said:

............ They have outstayed the end of the contract, ..................

Thanks to Thatcher's iron handbag any AST tenants tenancies continue, rolling on usually month-by-month, even if no rent is being paid.  It's their absolute legal right to stay, just as you have the absolute legal right to serve s21 and/or s8.  Were you aware of this??

That you found s21 was thrown out is interesting: May I humbly enquire why please?? Aware of this checklist??
https://nearlylegal.co.uk/section-21-flowchart/
&
https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/possession_and_eviction/notices_in_possession_proceedings/what_makes_a_section_21_notice_invalid


£10k arrears eh?  When did you first serve an s8 for arrears please? S8g10 may be validly served if only 1p is underpaid for only 1 day, a very cheap way (stamp & a bit of paper) to send a message to tenant (but only go to court after s8g8,10&11 and at least 2 months rent owing.

When is rent payable according to tenancy please?? If 4-weekly then s8g8 doesn;t apply....

What training or reading have you done in how to be a landlord please??

elsien

Is it not a bit early for small claims, given that you don’t know yet how long they’re going be there for and how much they are going to owe in total. It’s an unlikely possibility but they may end up paying some back. Or the deposit may not cover any end of tenancy costs that they are liable for. 

I’m not sure how you can  quantify the final amount at this stage of proceedings.

anselld

You don’t need a small claim if you are already taking section 8 to court.  The Court can make a money order alongside possession.  There are fewer technicalities to take down a s8 but you would still be advised to use a solicitor if you are not fully versed in the process.  

It is surprising that your s21 has been thrown out before your s8 was heard.  Normally s8 would be quicker and s21 is only a fallback.
 Neither S8 nor S21 appear on credit records etc but if the T fails to settle a money order then CCJ will appear on file.
There is an outside chance that taking s8 to Court will encourage the T to reduce the debt to less than two months but if poverty is genuine you should get your head round kissing goodbye to the money and focus on getting possession.

3card

anselld said:

You don’t need a small claim if you are already taking section 8 to court.  The Court can make a money order alongside possession.  There are fewer technicalities to take down a s8 but you would still be advised to use a solicitor if you are not fully versed in the process.  

It is surprising that your s21 has been thrown out before your s8 was heard.  Normally s8 would be quicker and s21 is only a fallback.
 Neither S8 nor S21 appear on credit records etc but if the T fails to settle a money order then CCJ will appear on file.
There is an outside chance that taking s8 to Court will encourage the T to reduce the debt to less than two months but if poverty is genuine you should get your head round kissing goodbye to the money and focus on getting possession.

I would be interested to hear more about the money order CCJ.
Last summer I went to court after issuing a S8 G8 and was issued with a possession order along with a money order. 
Obviously the 'tenant' ignored both the order and money order notice and i ended up getting bailiffs to carry the eviction out

After the eviction i rang the court to make sure that the CCJ would be showing on the 'tenants' credit references and i was told it wouldnt. I still dont understand why not being as it was issued by the County Court

anselld

3card said:

anselld said:

You don’t need a small claim if you are already taking section 8 to court.  The Court can make a money order alongside possession.  There are fewer technicalities to take down a s8 but you would still be advised to use a solicitor if you are not fully versed in the process.  

It is surprising that your s21 has been thrown out before your s8 was heard.  Normally s8 would be quicker and s21 is only a fallback.
 Neither S8 nor S21 appear on credit records etc but if the T fails to settle a money order then CCJ will appear on file.
There is an outside chance that taking s8 to Court will encourage the T to reduce the debt to less than two months but if poverty is genuine you should get your head round kissing goodbye to the money and focus on getting possession.

I would be interested to hear more about the money order CCJ.
Last summer I went to court after issuing a S8 G8 and was issued with a possession order along with a money order. 
Obviously the 'tenant' ignored both the order and money order notice and i ended up getting bailiffs to carry the eviction out

After the eviction i rang the court to make sure that the CCJ would be showing on the 'tenants' credit references and i was told it wouldnt. I still dont understand why not being as it was issued by the County Court

I don’t know I’m afraid.  My understanding was that a CCJ would appear if the money order was not settled.  

macman

On what 'technicaliity' was the S21 ruled invalid?
An S8 doesn't appear on a search, as it is just an application. But a CCJ will.

Fabtasia

On the section 21. Notice was served 3 months before the end of tenancy. Section 21 and section 8 filled in as quickly as they could be. All of the steps on the govt website were followed. Unfortunately, there are technicalities that are not there. Which, would not have impacted the eviction however as the tenant got a solicitor then any loophole could be used. The section 21, section 8 has since been refilled by a solicitor, note the solicitor was suprised it wasnt granted. I don't want to go into too much detail as this is a public forum. 

There are long delays on these getting to court, there is a backlog and a backlog on balliffs. If I wait much longer then by the time the tenant is evicted, the rent will exceed £10k. It took 6 months to get a court date, to even hear the case, once the notice period had been completed.

Still not sure why small claims is used for rent arrears - presumably, if a section 8 is granted then its cheaper than a CCJ.  

Fabtasia

@3card

I would be really interested to understand whether you 1) ended up getting the money on a money order due to the section 8 2) focused on procession 3) ended up getting a CCJ.

saajan_12

Fabtasia said:

I'm hoping for some advice on small claims.

A bit of background, tenant has been served s21 and section 8. It is yet to go to court again. - when did you serve the latest set of notices, and when is your court date? You should be able to act on the S8 sooner if the rent arrears are sufficient. 
I served a section 21 and now have had to employ a solicitor as they had employed one and got it thrown out on a technicality. - what was the technicality? Have you gone through the checklist to confirm no further issues?
They have outstayed the end of the contract, have stopped paying rent and are claiming poverty - this is not the case but I can not prove this. - it doesn't really matter whether you can prove their finances, a S8 G8 is a mandatory ground for getting possession. 

Rent arrears are under £10k but significant. - how many months rent does that equal?

What are any advantages of going to the small claims if I already have a section  8. Would I invalidate either if I did both? - not invalidated, but you may be able to make a money claim with the S8, so the separate small claims action may be redundant / invalidated if you do. 
Disadvantage: you don't know the full arrears and can only claim for rent due before you file the claim
Advantage: If there's a delay in the eviction process for any reason, your money claim gets going while you know where to serve them etc. 

Will a section 8 appear on a landlord search so that any future landlords don't get caught out (one of my main motivations for the small claim?).  I just don't want anyone else to go through this. - S8 won't. They money claim, if unpaid in the allowed timescale, would become a CCJ which would then go onto their credit history. 

Are they more likely to pay if they get a small claim versus a section 8. - no idea, that calls for the operation of their mind. 

Is serving the section 21 and section 8, enough notice or do I need to wrote an additional letter to notify them that I will go to court. - the S21/S8 are precisely the notice of your intention to go to court to evict. If you file a separate money claim, then you should send a letter before action. 

Greatful for any help.

Comments in line.. but bottom line is focus on getting your S21 / S8 notice right and then file for the court hearing.. for S8 that should get going soon. 

Fabtasia

Thank you for your help. As before, have got a solicitor involved. So they are ensuring that every point is covered off on both notices. I am focusing on getting the property back. I think to do a small claims would muddy the issue, for more cost.

Will let you know how this comes out. However, the technicality was one of the wording on one of the forms, which isn't on any of the websites (including those that have also been forwarded in the thread). Essentially, as I am sure you know, the law isn't about who is right but about what you can base a legal opinion on. I suspect that this person has done this before.

The original section 8, section 21, were filled very promptly, the rent arrears are essentially getting on for 8 months (and counting), simply because it takes that long to get to court, only to be in this case refiled, which starts the process again.

Again thank you for your help. My advice to anyone in this situation is to use a lawyer quite promptly once you start raising section 21s etc. In 95% of cases, you wouldn't have needed one but unfortunately, I am in the 5%