Jury Service - Self Employed

Undervalued

Marvel1 said:

Mands said:

MalMonroe said:

SueC_2 said:

A friend's husband has been called for jury service.  He is self-employed and earns considerably more than the £64.95 per day that he can claim for loss of earnings, which will leave him and his family in a difficult situation - particularly as the work he does is project-based and an absence of a week or two (or more) will not only affect the job that he is working on, but also his attractiveness for future contracts.  

It doesn't appear that there is anything he can do about this, but I just thought I'd post it here in case anyone has any advice on how he can handle this to either avoid jury service altogether or minimise his losses.  Thanks in advance.

Ask your friend's husband to read the info in this link -

https://www.gov.uk/jury-service/delaying-or-being-excused-from-jury-service#:~:text=If it's not possible for,you from doing jury service

There should be contact details on the letter he's been sent. All he has to do is say what you have said above.

The link you posted says there are very specific circumstances in which one may be excused.  They are:

If it’s not possible for you to do jury service in the next 12 months, you can ask to be excused. You’ll only be allowed to do this in exceptional circumstances, for example:

• you have a serious illness or disability that prevents you from doing jury service
• you’re a full time carer of someone with an illness or disability
• you’re a new parent and will not be able to serve at any other time in the next 12 months

None of those apply here. There is no exemption for it being financially inconvenient.

Not true, i had jury service onnyhr dates I had annual leave.  I said I was going to book a last minute holiday but happy to do another date (I wasn't planning on booking anything, but wasn't willing to waste my leave on jury duty).

Got deferred and weeks later a new date given and attended.

No, you are misunderstanding.

Anybody can ask for their jury service to be deferred and the court may well agree if that can be accommodated. However there is only a right to a deferral under the fairly limited list of circumstances detailed in the post from Mands.

Although it seldom actually happens, a jury bailiff can quite literally pick somebody off the street and require them to serve there and then!

SueC_2

Savvy_Sue said:

And I'd think carefully about deferment. DS2 was summonsed here soon after he'd moved out. He contacted the court and was deferred, but had to give his new address. He was summonsed there very soon after.

So you may not be kicking the can very far down the road, and things may not be much better then, if at all.

Is the nature of his work such that he couldn't do any catching up in the late afternoon / evening? 

No, unfortunately not.  

SueC_2

Mands said:

MalMonroe said:

SueC_2 said:

A friend's husband has been called for jury service.  He is self-employed and earns considerably more than the £64.95 per day that he can claim for loss of earnings, which will leave him and his family in a difficult situation - particularly as the work he does is project-based and an absence of a week or two (or more) will not only affect the job that he is working on, but also his attractiveness for future contracts.  

It doesn't appear that there is anything he can do about this, but I just thought I'd post it here in case anyone has any advice on how he can handle this to either avoid jury service altogether or minimise his losses.  Thanks in advance.

Ask your friend's husband to read the info in this link -

https://www.gov.uk/jury-service/delaying-or-being-excused-from-jury-service#:~:text=If it's not possible for,you from doing jury service

There should be contact details on the letter he's been sent. All he has to do is say what you have said above.

The link you posted says there are very specific circumstances in which one may be excused.  They are:

If it’s not possible for you to do jury service in the next 12 months, you can ask to be excused. You’ll only be allowed to do this in exceptional circumstances, for example:

• you have a serious illness or disability that prevents you from doing jury service
• you’re a full time carer of someone with an illness or disability
• you’re a new parent and will not be able to serve at any other time in the next 12 months

None of those apply here. There is no exemption for it being financially inconvenient.

Hmmmmm, but it does say "for example" so I wouldn't presume that list to be exhaustive.  Thanks for your thoughts though.

Grumpy_chap

What type of role does he do that really can't tolerate a short-term absence?
How would he manage if he fell ill?
Has he ever taken annual leave?
Clients, even for project based work, tend to expect individuals to take absence at various times for various reasons.

This is a request to do jury service, which he'd rather not.
Would it be equally as difficult if this was a prize for an all-expenses paid fortnight in the Caribbean?

Is this really down to the income situation attached with the jury service?
One of the pitfalls of being self-employed and running your own business is the need to make provision for such matters.
The benefit of being self-employed and running your own business is the right of substitution.

If there is no right of substitution, is he really self-employed?
Is the work inside or outside or IR-35?
If the works is inside IR-35, it may be possible to enquire whether jury service is covered by the Client on the same basis as it would be for direct staff.  That basis might be unpaid (other than the court allowance).

As others have said, it is quite common that jury service has a lot of waiting around and early finishes - all time where a remote log-on and work can be possible.

Or, is this really down to he just thinks jury service will be uninteresting?
That's one of the trials of modern life, unfortunately.

Hope he can find a solution.

SueC_2

Grumpy_chap said:

What type of role does he do that really can't tolerate a short-term absence?
How would he manage if he fell ill?
Has he ever taken annual leave?
Clients, even for project based work, tend to expect individuals to take absence at various times for various reasons.

This is a request to do jury service, which he'd rather not.
Would it be equally as difficult if this was a prize for an all-expenses paid fortnight in the Caribbean?

Is this really down to the income situation attached with the jury service?
One of the pitfalls of being self-employed and running your own business is the need to make provision for such matters.
The benefit of being self-employed and running your own business is the right of substitution.

If there is no right of substitution, is he really self-employed?
Is the work inside or outside or IR-35?
If the works is inside IR-35, it may be possible to enquire whether jury service is covered by the Client on the same basis as it would be for direct staff.  That basis might be unpaid (other than the court allowance).

As others have said, it is quite common that jury service has a lot of waiting around and early finishes - all time where a remote log-on and work can be possible.

Or, is this really down to he just thinks jury service will be uninteresting?
That's one of the trials of modern life, unfortunately.

Hope he can find a solution.

How would he manage if he fell ill?  If he truly couldn't work his family would have to suffer the hardship, as they will if he goes on jury service.
Has he ever taken annual leave?  No, he times any holiday to be between projects.
Clients, even for project based work, tend to expect individuals to take absence at various times for various reasons.

This is a request to do jury service, which he'd rather not.  His only reason for not wanting to is the financial hardship it will cause.
Would it be equally as difficult if this was a prize for an all-expenses paid fortnight in the Caribbean?  Yes.

Is this really down to the income situation attached with the jury service?  Absolutely.
One of the pitfalls of being self-employed and running your own business is the need to make provision for such matters.  Agreed.
The benefit of being self-employed and running your own business is the right of substitution.  Agreed, but once you've committed to a project it's pretty poor form not to see it through.

If there is no right of substitution, is he really self-employed?  Yes.
Is the work inside or outside or IR-35?  Outside.
If the works is inside IR-35, it may be possible to enquire whether jury service is covered by the Client on the same basis as it would be for direct staff.  That basis might be unpaid (other than the court allowance).

As others have said, it is quite common that jury service has a lot of waiting around and early finishes - all time where a remote log-on and work can be possible.  His job isn't something he can do remotely or through logging on.

Or, is this really down to he just thinks jury service will be uninteresting?  Not in the slightest.
That's one of the trials of modern life, unfortunately.

Hope he can find a solution.   Thanks for your help.

saker75

Many of us jury service when self-employed. I was called for service a few months after starting my freelance work. The timing was awful and I spent the evenings catching up on work. I lost money because the court rate is about a fifth of what I was charging as a day rate at the time. These are just 'life" costs that need to be factored in to your sales with the hope that eventually everything will even out. During jury service I was not called for the first four days - four days of doing literally nothing and getting frustrated and what else I could be doing. And then two cases back-to-back. I left the court usually by 3.30pm each day. It was a stressful and bizarrely enjoyable experience.

DullGreyGuy

SueC_2 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

What type of role does he do that really can't tolerate a short-term absence?
How would he manage if he fell ill?
Has he ever taken annual leave?
Clients, even for project based work, tend to expect individuals to take absence at various times for various reasons.

This is a request to do jury service, which he'd rather not.
Would it be equally as difficult if this was a prize for an all-expenses paid fortnight in the Caribbean?

Is this really down to the income situation attached with the jury service?
One of the pitfalls of being self-employed and running your own business is the need to make provision for such matters.
The benefit of being self-employed and running your own business is the right of substitution.

If there is no right of substitution, is he really self-employed?
Is the work inside or outside or IR-35?
If the works is inside IR-35, it may be possible to enquire whether jury service is covered by the Client on the same basis as it would be for direct staff.  That basis might be unpaid (other than the court allowance).

As others have said, it is quite common that jury service has a lot of waiting around and early finishes - all time where a remote log-on and work can be possible.

Or, is this really down to he just thinks jury service will be uninteresting?
That's one of the trials of modern life, unfortunately.

Hope he can find a solution.

How would he manage if he fell ill?  If he truly couldn't work his family would have to suffer the hardship, as they will if he goes on jury service.
Has he ever taken annual leave?  No, he times any holiday to be between projects.
Clients, even for project based work, tend to expect individuals to take absence at various times for various reasons.

This is a request to do jury service, which he'd rather not.  His only reason for not wanting to is the financial hardship it will cause.
Would it be equally as difficult if this was a prize for an all-expenses paid fortnight in the Caribbean?  Yes.

Is this really down to the income situation attached with the jury service?  Absolutely.
One of the pitfalls of being self-employed and running your own business is the need to make provision for such matters.  Agreed.
The benefit of being self-employed and running your own business is the right of substitution.  Agreed, but once you've committed to a project it's pretty poor form not to see it through.

If there is no right of substitution, is he really self-employed?  Yes.
Is the work inside or outside or IR-35?  Outside.
If the works is inside IR-35, it may be possible to enquire whether jury service is covered by the Client on the same basis as it would be for direct staff.  That basis might be unpaid (other than the court allowance).

As others have said, it is quite common that jury service has a lot of waiting around and early finishes - all time where a remote log-on and work can be possible.  His job isn't something he can do remotely or through logging on.

Or, is this really down to he just thinks jury service will be uninteresting?  Not in the slightest.
That's one of the trials of modern life, unfortunately.

Hope he can find a solution.   Thanks for your help.

On point one... just like the jury service... he can get insurance to cover his income if he is off sick (same as LE covers jury service)

Substitution isnt about not seeing it through as you are still on the hook for it, however substitution isnt an answer to this problem as if he is getting paid £300 a day as a widget maker the likelihood is any other widget maker will want about £300 a day to act as the substitute and so it may solve a client relationship issue but not the financial one. 

SensibleSarah

This is something that worries me as a freelancer. I have a buffer of funds in case of sickness etc (and insurance cover for long-term sick, just in case) so suppose the emergency fund would just have to cover it, but 2 full weeks not getting paid any of my usual freelance rate would be a big chunk of money. Some of my work could potentially be done evenings/weekends but certainly not the 35 hours a week I'm committed to with my current clients. I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed that it doesn't happen. 

Question for those who have done it - can you use a laptop in the court waiting room i.e. could you potentially work remotely if not called? 

SueC_2

DullGreyGuy said:

SueC_2 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

What type of role does he do that really can't tolerate a short-term absence?
How would he manage if he fell ill?
Has he ever taken annual leave?
Clients, even for project based work, tend to expect individuals to take absence at various times for various reasons.

This is a request to do jury service, which he'd rather not.
Would it be equally as difficult if this was a prize for an all-expenses paid fortnight in the Caribbean?

Is this really down to the income situation attached with the jury service?
One of the pitfalls of being self-employed and running your own business is the need to make provision for such matters.
The benefit of being self-employed and running your own business is the right of substitution.

If there is no right of substitution, is he really self-employed?
Is the work inside or outside or IR-35?
If the works is inside IR-35, it may be possible to enquire whether jury service is covered by the Client on the same basis as it would be for direct staff.  That basis might be unpaid (other than the court allowance).

As others have said, it is quite common that jury service has a lot of waiting around and early finishes - all time where a remote log-on and work can be possible.

Or, is this really down to he just thinks jury service will be uninteresting?
That's one of the trials of modern life, unfortunately.

Hope he can find a solution.

How would he manage if he fell ill?  If he truly couldn't work his family would have to suffer the hardship, as they will if he goes on jury service.
Has he ever taken annual leave?  No, he times any holiday to be between projects.
Clients, even for project based work, tend to expect individuals to take absence at various times for various reasons.

This is a request to do jury service, which he'd rather not.  His only reason for not wanting to is the financial hardship it will cause.
Would it be equally as difficult if this was a prize for an all-expenses paid fortnight in the Caribbean?  Yes.

Is this really down to the income situation attached with the jury service?  Absolutely.
One of the pitfalls of being self-employed and running your own business is the need to make provision for such matters.  Agreed.
The benefit of being self-employed and running your own business is the right of substitution.  Agreed, but once you've committed to a project it's pretty poor form not to see it through.

If there is no right of substitution, is he really self-employed?  Yes.
Is the work inside or outside or IR-35?  Outside.
If the works is inside IR-35, it may be possible to enquire whether jury service is covered by the Client on the same basis as it would be for direct staff.  That basis might be unpaid (other than the court allowance).

As others have said, it is quite common that jury service has a lot of waiting around and early finishes - all time where a remote log-on and work can be possible.  His job isn't something he can do remotely or through logging on.

Or, is this really down to he just thinks jury service will be uninteresting?  Not in the slightest.
That's one of the trials of modern life, unfortunately.

Hope he can find a solution.   Thanks for your help.

On point one... just like the jury service... he can get insurance to cover his income if he is off sick (same as LE covers jury service)

Substitution isnt about not seeing it through as you are still on the hook for it, however substitution isnt an answer to this problem as if he is getting paid £300 a day as a widget maker the likelihood is any other widget maker will want about £300 a day to act as the substitute and so it may solve a client relationship issue but not the financial one. 

Exactly.  And the client may decide they prefer the new widget maker for whatever reason, and the new widget maker may get first dibs on any future contracts.

DullGreyGuy

SensibleSarah said:

This is something that worries me as a freelancer. I have a buffer of funds in case of sickness etc (and insurance cover for long-term sick, just in case) so suppose the emergency fund would just have to cover it, but 2 full weeks not getting paid any of my usual freelance rate would be a big chunk of money. Some of my work could potentially be done evenings/weekends but certainly not the 35 hours a week I'm committed to with my current clients. I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed that it doesn't happen. 

Question for those who have done it - can you use a laptop in the court waiting room i.e. could you potentially work remotely if not called? 

Again... check your legal expenses insurance on your Home or Business insurances... better ones cover the shortfall, some up to a cap (eg QDOS cap at up to £500 per day)

I havent done it but a employee colleague did and he was using his laptop in the waiting room on the first day's morning but then had a fairly full on trial for the next 4 days or so.