Flat leak and Managing Agents

umeedify

Hello all,

I have become an accidental landlord in the last few years of a share of freehold top-floor flat in a 3-storey building with 3 flats below it.

In September 2022, the flats below reported a leak and the managing agents launched an investigation to identify the source of this.

In January 2023, it was identified that the leak was originating from my flat on the top floor. Apparently, from a pipe running into the soil pipe inside the walls. (I do not know exactly as the agents have not answered my questions)

The managing agents have stated that as the flat is demised I will have to pay a bill of almost £3,000 for repair. The flats below should be covered by building insurance. They sent me a non-itemised bill which gave a very little breakdown of these costs.

I have asked the agents to provide reports and also confirm where the leak is as well as what part of the lease they refer to when determining how this is demised. They have avoided answering the questions or have been incompetent in not reading what I have requested.

I have prepared the following to send them

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Thank you for your email. I appreciate your efforts to clarify the questions posed to you in writing. To ensure that the legal teams have the necessary information, I have listed the questions again below:

1. Could you please confirm the exact position/placement of the leak and the exact location of the pipe in question?
2. Could you provide all reports that you have received from the investigation?
3. Could you provide a full breakdown of the quote, including itemised labour and material costs associated with each flat?
4. Have you requested other quotes for comparison? If so, what is your procedure for doing so?
5. What part of the lease do you reference to come to the conclusion of the relevant pipe (which has no identification) as being demised?

I look forward to your response and thank you for your cooperation.

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I have contents insurance with public liability which will not cover my leak.

Could anyone advise on what to do and if I need to add anything else to the above and whether I need get a lawyer involved?

thanks

propertyrental

I might delete question 5. The importan thing is to identify the exact location of the pipe. Then you can read your lease (quote it here if need be) and you can decide if you as leaseholder or they as freeholder/agent are responsible.

Your contents insurance won't cover this. Not sure why their building insurance won't, but that may be dependant on the lease issue above.

I would not involve a solicitor unless you have legal cover along with your insurance? Or via your workplace or union?

pinkshoes

A pipe inside the soil pipe and inside the walls? 

I would want them to clarify exactly where this leak is and the location of the pipe that is leaking, as it sounds to me like a buildings insurance claim if the pipe is in the wall.

ps - no such thing as an accidental landlord. It was a decision/choice you made to either sell or rent out. 

eddddy

If it's your waste pipe, you should be arranging the investigation and you should be arranging the repair.

If the agent is offering to get the repair done for £3k, you can take them up on their offer, or you can decline their offer.

If you're unhappy with the level of detail the agent is providing with their offer - maybe you don't want to use them. Maybe you want to use a different plumber/builder who provides greater detail.




Alternatively - if you're disputing that the wastepipe is your responsibility, and you can't reach agreement about this with the freeholder (or the freeholder's agent)...

...what does your lease say about resolving disputes with the freeholder?

Some leases say that the leaseholder and freeholder should jointly instruct a RICS surveyor to investigate, and the surveyor's decision will be binding on both parties. (And the surveyor's fee is either split between the 2 parties, or it is paid by the 'losing' party.)


TBH, even if the lease doesn't say that, you can propose it to the freeholders as a potential solution. 

umeedify

eddddy said:

If it's your waste pipe, you should be arranging the investigation and you should be arranging the repair.

If the agent is offering to get the repair done for £3k, you can take them up on their offer, or you can decline their offer.

If you're unhappy with the level of detail the agent is providing with their offer - maybe you don't want to use them. Maybe you want to use a different plumber/builder who provides greater detail.




Alternatively - if you're disputing that the wastepipe is your responsibility, and you can't reach agreement about this with the freeholder (or the freeholder's agent)...

...what does your lease say about resolving disputes with the freeholder?

Some leases say that the leaseholder and freeholder should jointly instruct a RICS surveyor to investigate, and the surveyor's decision will be binding on both parties. (And the surveyor's fee is either split between the 2 parties, or it is paid by the 'losing' party.)


TBH, even if the lease doesn't say that, you can propose it to the freeholders as a potential solution. 

Thanks for this = v helpful

We are a block of 24 flats and each has share of freehold.

Im not sure how to read this but here are the schedules in the lease 

https://www.upload.ee/image/14921123/Lease_Cav_Schedule_3.png
https://www.upload.ee/image/14921136/Lease_Schedule_4a.png
https://www.upload.ee/image/14921140/Lease_Schedule_4b.png
https://www.upload.ee/image/14921143/Lease_Schedule_5a.png
https://www.upload.ee/image/14921146/Lease_Schedule_5b.png

umeedify

pinkshoes said:

A pipe inside the soil pipe and inside the walls? 

I would want them to clarify exactly where this leak is and the location of the pipe that is leaking, as it sounds to me like a buildings insurance claim if the pipe is in the wall.

ps - no such thing as an accidental landlord. It was a decision/choice you made to either sell or rent out. 

thats exactly the request and also any reports they have had.  Not getting additional quotes or giving me a chance to repair and investigate leaves a bad taste....

eddddy

This page:

https://www.upload.ee/image/14921123/Lease_Cav_Schedule_3.png

Says (see the bold underlined parts)...

THE DEMISED PREMISES 

FIRST ALL THAT Ground Floor Flat forming part of the Estate 

and being one of the Flats and known as ----- 

aforesaid ALL WHICH said Flat is delineated on Plan No:2 annexed hereto and thereon edged red TOGETHER WITH the ceilings the roof space above and the joists and beams to which the ceilings are attached and the floor finishes of the said Flat but not the joists or beams to which the floors are attached AND TOGETHER WITH all cisterns tanks sewers drains pipes wires ducts and conduits used solely for the purpose of the said Flat but no others ....

So if the leaking pipe/drain is used solely by your flat - then it is demised to you (i.e. it is part of your flat). So you would be responsible for repairing it.

But if the leaking pipe/drain is used by other flats as well - then it's not demised to you (i.e. it's not part of your flat). So you wouldn't be responsible for it.

So you need to found out if the pipe/drain is only used by your flat.

eddddy

umeedify said:

Not getting additional quotes or giving me a chance to repair and investigate leaves a bad taste....

Just to reiterate - if it's your wastepipe, it's your responsibility to get quotes and get it repaired.


And you need to do what a 'reasonable' person would do - otherwise you could face a claim for 'negligence'.

For example, if the pipe is continuing to leak and cause further damage, a 'reasonable' person would take steps to minimise further damage. Either by getting it repaired as soon as 'reasonably' possible, and/or by not using the wastepipe until it's repaired, etc.

The managing agent might have an 'excuse' for stepping-in, doing the repair, and charging you - if you don't do anything within a 'reasonable' time, so it's best to keep them informed.

umeedify

Still have not had a reply yet from the managing agents.  I have got my own quotes of what it would've cost through detecting via a non-intrusive method.  (note: 5 different plumbers have come and created a lot of damage- holes etc)

The cost would have been around £1000.

eddddy

umeedify said:

Still have not had a reply yet from the managing agents.  I have got my own quotes of what it would've cost through detecting via a non-intrusive method.  (note: 5 different plumbers have come and created a lot of damage- holes etc)

The cost would have been around £1000.

It sounds like you're not doing anything about the leak. If so, you need to be careful.

You've been told that your wastepipe is leaking, and causing damage to other flats. If you do nothing about it, you're probably being negligent.

You say that the flats below you might make an insurance claim. So you might get an aggressive insurance company pursuing you for negligence.  (And/or you might get the other flat owners pursuing you for negligence.)


Perhaps the best way forward is to stop arguing with the management company for the moment, and get the leak repaired.

umeedify

thank you  - absolutely not arguing and have not blocked/stopped any work just asking for information - in actual fact, the building insurance loss adjuster has to visit for the damage caused to the flats below. I have been told by the ground floor flat that they have no leak anymore so all very confusing.

I will actual ask for a status update if the repair has been actioned from one of the 5 plumbers who visited.