PCN, neither driver or RK, to pay or fight? 17 January at 5:44PM in Parking tickets, fines & parking 8 replies 131 views

On-the-coast

Hello, and thanks in anticipation for your thoughts, whether i agree or disagree with them - and thanks to the members of this board and the work they do. 

Pariticulars of my case

• 17/Jan/2023 Received a PCN from Parking Eye Ltd (BPA member)
• 01/Dec/2022 Alleged parking event
• 12/Jan/2023 Date PCN Issued
• PCN Amount £100 if made withing 28 days of issue (i.e. by 09/02/2023), and If paid within 14 days of issue discounted to £60 (i.e. by 26/01/2023)
• Place: "Town Quay 1", Southampton – for approx. 75 minutes of parking based on entry/exit date/time stamps around midday
• 2 photographs (entry / exit) have been provided, both very dark, in which number plate details are just visible.

About me, the keeper and the driver

• This car is a company car (provided to me) so I am not the registered keeper. I was not the driver on this occasion.
• The driver has asserted to me that on the day in question they parked (as was their habit) for a 1hr work appointment, but the parking data entry machines were broken in that they refused to take entry of registration number and also refused to recognise bank card.  The driver says they tried 2 machines.  The driver did not have a charged mobile phone in their possession to pay online, and as they urgently needed to make their appointment deadline (which was to provide learning support to a student with learning support needs) they continued on to their appointment by foot.

Questions/linked series of observations:

• I’d be happy to challenge this PCN if it remains in my name – but I do not wish to spend more than a few hours of my time on the matter (I’ve already wasted 30 minutes of my life writing this).
• The Driver says they “will not pay” and are “happy to argue with the parking company if I transfer the responsibility to them”.

Based on the brief summary above is it realistic that I can

a) challenge this successfully myself,

b) obtain an easy “out” based on me being neither the registered keeper or driver

I know many will disagree, but I’m very inclined to pay £60 to get rid of the irritation. I suspect that formally assigning this complaint to the driver will result in many hours of effort expended for an outside chance of gain, and I value our time at greater than £60

Coupon-mad

This is easy to win.  No effort needed.

Just send the company car appeal in the NEWBIES thread.  Near the end of the first post, link to a special Notice to Hirer appeal written by Edna Basher.

Tick 'hirer' on PE's drop-down menu.
Repeat the same at POPLA. You can't lose this at POPLA stage!

On-the-coast

Thanks for your reply (& sterling work).  I did read the newbies FAQ thoroughly before i posted here, including the section titled:
"* COMPANY, LEASE OR HIRE CARS ANYWHERE IN THE UK"
However, with reference to that section:

• It's not a windscreen ticket.
• The landowner (ABP - Associated British Ports) will have no interest in this case (my assumption) since they are in no way related to the org the driver was visiting, and merely wish to monetise that parking area.
• My Fleet manager (i don't know how, or even if) has already passed this to me, or parking eye have somehow accessed my details from another party in a very short space of time - only 5 days between issue of PCN and arrival on my doorstep, which TBH is a good thing since it gives me that chance to deal with it while there's still a discount (bribe) to pay up.

There are 4 referenced threads in COMPANY, LEASE OR HIRE CARS ANYWHERE IN THE UK sectoin

• The first 3 (focus on the fact that the lease/hire company has forwarded the PCN to hirer
• The 4th relates to a fleet manager taking up the case on behalf of the fleet in general.

In my case Parking Eye limited have written directly to me, there has been no direct communication from the fleet/lease company, nor is there any reference to the fleet management company (Arval) on the PCN - the total contents of the envelope i received being 1 double sided piece of paper which was the PCN itself.

KeithP

Your thread title and opening post tells us that you are not the Registered Keeper.
Where else could PE get your name and address if it wasn't from Arval?

Also, PE are usually pretty quick to get a PCN out to a keeper, but in this case it has taken them from 1st December to 12th January - that's six weeks - to even issue the PCN that you now have.
If that were a standard Notice to Keeper, it would not be able to hold the keeper liable for anything the driver may have done wrong.

I suggest to you that PE sent a NtK to Arval who responded to PE that you were the vehicle's day to day keeper. PE then sent you a Notice to Hirer.

Please confirm that you have a Notice to Hirer.

Coupon-mad

Where else could PE get your name and address if it wasn't from Arval?

I suspect this could be our first experience of PE getting data from Transfer 360 if Arval didn't supply the data direct to PE:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/79753599#Comment_79753599

By using Transfer360 (if they do) a PPC bypasses the POFA process entirely - which only comes into play where the keeper data was first obtained 'from the Secretary of State' ONLY (via the DVLA).

So if I am right, PE can't hold a hirer liable.

The OP should ask their lease firm Arval, if they got a PCN from PEye and passed on his data OR are they registered with the new dubious service of 'Transfer360' and if so, at what point did their DPO get his/her agreement to share data with that (hitherto) never used new enterprise third party that was not declared in their Privacy Statement as a person they share data with?  Tell them you did not agree for your data to be shared with Transfer360 and you consider the uploading of your personal data to that new portal to be a data breach.

I bet this NTK is a 'Golden Ticket', yes?  Compare it to the Golden Ticket image linked in the third post of the NEWBIES thread.  A match, yes?  Nothing on the back about about the keeper becoming liable?

Also, is it called a Notice to Hirer or a PCN?

On-the-coast

Interesting comments from both of you - thanks.

@KeithP -  i do not know what a "notice to hirer" looks like.  I have a PCN "Parking Charge Notice", addressed to me & the word "hirer" does not appear on either the front or back of the piece of paper I've received.  I agree with your suspicions, but i find it odd that my fleet manager / lease owner did not contact me separately (as has happened to me once in the past - although different fleet manager)

@Coupon-mad - I've not heard of Transfer 360.  I will ask Arval what information they have been asked for - if any.  I have a fairly helpful contact at Arval (since although they are a general lease company, they also have a dedicated poc for the company i work for)
I checked my PCN (not NTK) against the referenced "golden ticket":

• Block 1, identical
• Block 2, identical (except address has changed)
• Block 3, quite different. It says the Registed keeper details have been provided by the DVLA etc. etc.  but... as far as i know (since it's a company car /  lease car) I'm not the registered keeper?

see attached images of both sides of PCN (which is the entirety of the information received)

Coupon-mad

Easy as pie!

Use Edna Basher's appeal about the Notice not complying with the POFA and not attaching the required documents, given the fact you are the hirer/lessee (company car) but not the registered keeper nor the driver on this occasion (who will not be identified).

But NO RUSH!

First:

Please can you find out first from Arval whether they supplied your data to PE after receiving a PCN or have they uploaded your data without permission to a brand new third party enterprise you'd never heard of, called Transfer360?

It's a little odd that isn't entitled 'Notice to Hirer' which is why I suspect that your data was obtained by the back door, via an untested new portal called 'Transfer360'.

On-the-coast

Thanks @Coupon-mad.
I reached out to my companies contact at Arval, here is their rapid response:

• Fine reference xxxxx/yyyyy is one we received from Parking Eye, in line with <your companies> policy we transfer the liability so we have provided your details to them.   Arval are the registered keeper of the vehicle as it is on lease. 

I wouldn't be suprised to find that somewhere in the small print of my corporate agreement for the lease there's a statement where i permit this to happen, but at least it's very clear how my details were obtained.

Does the fact that I'm not the registered keeper, and haven't been addressed as the hirer, now invalidate this speculative invoice?
And, what is the significance of the difference between what I've received and the golden ticket referenced above?

KeithP

That's good.

Then follow the guidance offered by @Coupon-mad in the early hours of this morning...

Coupon-mad said:

Easy as pie!

Use Edna Basher's appeal about the Notice not complying with the POFA and not attaching the required documents, given the fact you are the hirer/lessee (company car) but not the registered keeper nor the driver on this occasion (who will not be identified).