Joint tenanxy

macman

propertyrental said:

macman said:

But if one party to the tenancy physically moves out, surely the joint tenancy is surrendered, and the other party has no right to remain? Yes, they could remain in occupation, with or without the LL knowing the circumstances, but they would no longer have a valid tenancy in law?

No. And no.
Physically moving out does not end a tenancy. If it did the whole concept of giving notice to end a tenancy would be legally meaningless, and tenants would simply leave whenever it suited them and the tenancy would be considered 'surrendered'.

A tenancy is surrendered if and only if a number of criteria are satisfied. Physical occupancy is not one of those criteria.

A valid tenancy in law, and the obligations to pay rent/provide services, bind all parties (joint tenant as well as landlords) until a tenancy is formally ended, be that by a court, mutual consent, or proper notice by the tenant(s).

But what I was referring to here is specifically a joint tenancy. If one joint tenant ends such a tenancy, it is ended for all. And cannot a tenant be ruled to have ended the tenancy if they move out and effectively abandon the property? In the case of a joint tenancy, such action would then end the tenancy for any other joint parties to the tenancy.

nrmm

No break clause. We have a very good relationship with the LL and committed and were comfortable with the teams of the tenancy. I actually pay for all the bills myself, including rent. Bank Direct debit from my account every month since all the tenancy started

propertyrental

macman said:

propertyrental said:

macman said:

But if one party to the tenancy physically moves out, surely the joint tenancy is surrendered, and the other party has no right to remain? Yes, they could remain in occupation, with or without the LL knowing the circumstances, but they would no longer have a valid tenancy in law?

No. And no.
Physically moving out does not end a tenancy. If it did the whole concept of giving notice to end a tenancy would be legally meaningless, and tenants would simply leave whenever it suited them and the tenancy would be considered 'surrendered'.

A tenancy is surrendered if and only if a number of criteria are satisfied. Physical occupancy is not one of those criteria.

A valid tenancy in law, and the obligations to pay rent/provide services, bind all parties (joint tenant as well as landlords) until a tenancy is formally ended, be that by a court, mutual consent, or proper notice by the tenant(s).

But what I was referring to here is specifically a joint tenancy. If one joint tenant ends such a tenancy, it is ended for all.
Only in a periodic tenancy - not a fixed term
 And cannot a tenant be ruled to have ended the tenancy if they move out and effectively abandon the property?
Yes - can be ruled by a court, but that is nowhere near the same as will be ruled by that court.
In the case of a joint tenancy, such action would then end the tenancy for any other joint parties to the tenancy.

Yes - if a court so ruled. But a lot of landlords have got unstuck by assuming a property was abandoned, only to have the tenant return crying 'illegal eviction'!

https://www.landlordzone.co.uk/information/abandonment/

nrmm

I need further help.. as I’m little stuck and money to pay fees to a property solicitor is not an immediate option :-( 

So my ex-partner left abroad and his threats to come to the property and take his belongings are being handled by my solicitor. My solicitor is a family solicitor only.

the landlord came back to me proposing a new tenancy agreement on my sole name , commencing whenever I want / which obviously would be great to prevent ex-partner to come to property etc etc

i queried the landlord whether there wasn’t any issue with the approach as signing a new agreement would invalidate the previous one, which would have to follow some sort of termination process ? 

This is all I can find in the agreement that would be relevant? Still waiting to hear from the landlord to ensure you don’t incur on the risk of being taken to court for mishandling this situation. 

1. Ending the Tenancy and Re-entry

1.1. If at any time:

1 1. 1. . t h e R e n t , r o a n y p a r t of t i r e m a i n s u n p a i d of r 41 d a y s a f t e r f a l l i n g d u e , w h e t h e r f o r m a l 3 9 5 . 2 8 a t 2 0

 1.1.2. of any agreement or obligation of the Tenant is not complied with; or

1.1.3. fi any of the grounds set out ni Schedule 2 of the Housing Act 1988 (as amended) being grounds 2, 8. 10, 1, 12, 13, 14, 15 or 17 are made out (see Definitions);

The Landlord may give written Notice to the Tenant that the Landlord seeks possession of the Premises. If the Tenant does not comply with that Notice the Landlord will bring this Agreement to an end and re-gain possession of the Premises by complying with his statutory obligations; obtaining a court order; and re- entering the Premises with the County Court Bailiff. When the Bailiff enforces a possession order the right for the Tenant to remain in the Premises will end. This clause does not prejudice any other rights that the Landlord may have in respect of the Tenant's obligations under this Agreement.

2. Early Termination

2.1. If the Tenant vacates the Premises during the Term apart from according to any agreed break clause which is included within the Agreement, the Tenant will remain liable to pay Rent and any other monies payable under this Agreement until the Term expires; or the Premises are re-let whichever is earlier. The Tenant will be liable for Administration costs to the Agent in this event.

3. Interruptions to the Tenancy

3.1. If the Premises are destroyed or made uninhabitable by fire or any other risk against which the Landlord has insured, Rent will cease to be payable until the Premises are reinstated and rendered habitable; unless the insurance monies are not recoverable (whether in whole or in part) because of anything done or not done by the Tenant, his family or his visitors; or the insurer pays the costs of re-housing the Tenant.To avoid doubt between the parties the Landlord has no obligation to re-house the Tenant.

3.2. If the Premises are not made habitable within one month, either party may terminate this Agreement by giving immediate written notice to the other party.

4. Data Protection Act 1998

4.1. It is agreed that personal information of both the Landlord and the Tenant will be retained by the Agent; that present and future addresses and other contact details of the parties may be provided to each other, to utility suppliers, the local authority, authorised contractors, any credit agencies, reference agencies, legal advisers, debt collectors, or any other interested third party.

5. Notices

Page 20 of 20

5.1. The Landlord has notified the Tenant that according to sections 47 and 48 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987 the address at which notices (including notices in proceedings) other written requests may be sent or served on the Landlord is XXX

5.2. The Tenant shall as soon as reasonably practical deliver or post on ot the address set out ni clause 51. of schedule 3 of the Agreement, any notice or other communication which is delivered or posted to the Premises.

5.3. The provisions for the service of notices are that if the Landlord or the Agent deliver by hand any Notices or documents which are necessary under the Agreement, or any Act of Parliament to the Premises by 4.30pm or the last known address of the Tenant if different; and reasonable evidence is kept of the delivery; the documents or Notices will be deemed delivered on the next working day; or if any documents or Notices are sent by registered, or recorded delivery post the documents will be deemed delivered upon proof of delivery being obtained; or if the documents or Notices are sent by ordinary first class post addressed to the Tenant at the Premises or the last known address of the Tenant if different; and reasonable evidence is kept of the delivery; the documents or Notices wil be deemed delivered two working days later.

5.4. The provisions for the service of notices are that fi the Tenant or his agent deliver by hand by 4.30pm any Notices or documents which are necessary under the Agreement, or any Act of Parliament at the address specified or the last known address of the Landlord if different; and reasonable evidence is kept of the delivery; the documents or Notices will be deemed delivered on the next working day; or if any documents or Notices are sent by registered, or recorded delivery post at the address specified in clause 5.1 of Schedule 3 the documents will be deemed delivered upon proof of delivery being obtained; or fi the documents or Notices are sent by ordinary first class post addressed to the Landlord at the addressed to the Landlord at the address in clause 5.1 of Schedule 3 or the last known address of the Landlord fi different; and reasonable evidence is kept of the delivery; the documents or Notices wil be deemed delivered two working days later.

propertyrental

Just to recap (and I've only skim-read the thread again):

* it's a joint tenancy
* it's a 5 year fixed term
* a fixed term tenancy can only be surrendered if all parties agree (both joint tenants and landlord).

I'm not clear if the problem now is
a) your joint tenant refuses to cooperate with surrendering the tenancy, or
b) he just wants his belongings

As a joint tenant e has every right to return to the property, unless or until either the tenancy is ended (see above) or you obtain a court order denying hi access.

He also has every right to collect his belongings.

If it is just the belongings that is the issue, why not offer to send them to him, or prvide some other means for him to collect them. They are, after all, his!

Maybe by facilitating this you'll persuade him to sign a surrender document.....

nrmm

It’s both an and b .. there’s this limbo. And of course I’d let him take all his belongings but there’s no comm and I just don’t know when ex partner is turning up Pitt if the blue and create chaos. 

So essentially the landlord can’t terminate joint agreement and offer me a sole tenancy ?

SusieT

Why not tell him he can take his belongings, after he has signed to end the tenancy? 

propertyrental

nrmm said:

So essentially the landlord can’t terminate joint agreement and offer me a sole tenancy ?

The only way a LL can terminate a tenancy is by following the correct process (S21 Notice or S8 Notice) and then applying for a court to end the tenancy.

The alternative as explained is a mutual surrender requiring the consent of all parties.

If the tenancy was periodic (rolling) then a single tenant could serve notice, and that notice would bind all joint tenants. However, your tenancy is in a fixed term so a tenant can only end a fixed term if
a) there is a Break Clause and
b) all joint tenants agree/sign, or
c) by mutual surrender as above