Anyone successfully claimed Class 1 NIC credits only, without JSA / UC

fiscoking

Afternoon All,

Thank you for all your responses; much appreciated.

HillStreetBlues said:

....
As there is no claimant agreement how can they "force" a person to search for X amount of time and follow other rules.
....

calcotti said:

The issue is how does the government check that someone is ‘actively seeking work’ in order to ensure that credits are awarded correctly.

Ahhh, the innocence of someone that's never had to deal with JobCentre staff. 
They're a rule unto themselves, pretty much like the DWP. They'll just demand it. If you disagree they'll issue a sanction or stop the claim altogether. You can appeal but it takes months, and it's your word against theirs. Dealing with JC staff is a bit like going back to pre-school. Teachers orders, naughty step etc..it's how they coerce you off benefits and back into work. It's the reason the JC has such a bad rep.

I rang the DWP four times and eventually got through to someone that understood the question. They knew about form JSANC1 and I asked what the 'running routine' would be after a claim was accepted. It's the same as for a JSA claim. A visit every two weeks to a JC and scrutiny of your job search, which will mean details of the job, where advertised, when, who you applied to, their telephone number or email and the application you sent - hand written or printed. If you use the DWP online 'system' to search for work then this is all recorded electronically for you (and JC staff check). The work coach at the JC will set you a minimum number of jobs to apply for each week and you have to evidence you've done this. The DWP online 'system' also records how much searching you do as well. You're supposed to do 40 hours a week. Do less than this and you need a damn good explanation. I asked about failure to attend, or lack of evidence on job applications, and was told they'll just stop the claim, as there are no payment benefits to sanction.

So, looks like it's the 'self employed' option with voluntary class 2 NICs for my family member. There's really no contest, as it would cost as much in fuel and parking charges to visit the JC twice a month. Same result but without all the hassle.

Once again, thank you for the replies.

calcotti

As advised by JobCentre, to get NI credits as a jobseeker you appear to have to meet the same requirements as a JSA claimant. See legislative basis which directly relates NI credits to satisfying JSA requirements.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1975/556/regulation/8A
extracts below

Credits for unemployment
8A.
(2) Subject to paragraph (5) this regulation applies to a week which, in relation to the person concerned, is— 
(ba) a week for the whole of which the person in relation to new style JSA—
(i) satisfied or was treated as having satisfied the conditions set out in paragraphs (e) to (h) of section 1(2) of the Jobseekers Act 1995 (conditions for entitlement to a jobseeker’s allowance);
(ii) satisfied or was treated as having satisfied the work-related requirements under section 6D and 6E of the Jobseekers Act 1995 (work search and work availability requirements); and
(iii) satisfied the further condition specified in paragraph (3) below; or
(3) The further condition referred to in paragraph (2)(b) and (ba) is that the person concerned— 
(a) furnished to the Secretary of State notice in writing of the grounds on which he claims to be entitled to be credited with earnings— 
(i) on the first day of the period for which he claims to be so entitled in which the week in question fell; or
(ii) within such further time as may be reasonable in the circumstances of the case; and
(b) has provided any evidence required by the Secretary of State that the conditions referred to in paragraph (2)(b) or the conditions and requirements in paragraph (2)(ba) are satisfied.

cross referenced to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/18/contents

Paragraphs 6D and 6E set out the work search requirements and work related activity requirements. These allow the SoS to set out the amount of time to be spent on and what actions are required.

The paragraph requiring a Claimant Claimant is not included as  requirement that has to be met for NI credits only. 

The requirement "has provided any evidence required by the Secretary of State" effectively ties NI credits to the full evidential basis regime for a JSA recipient.

HillStreetBlues

Thank you for putting in this time as I do find it interesting but I do have another question about your post

a week for the whole of which the person in relation to old style JSA—

(i)satisfied or was treated as having satisfied the conditions set out in paragraphs (a), (c) and (e) to (h) of section 1(2) of the Jobseekers Act 1995 (conditions for entitlement to a jobseeker’s allowance); and

(ii)satisfied the further condition specified in paragraph (3) below; or]

a week for the whole of which the person in relation to new style JSA—

(i)satisfied or was treated as having satisfied the conditions set out in paragraphs (e) to (h) of section 1(2) of the Jobseekers Act 1995 (conditions for entitlement to a jobseeker’s allowance);

(ii)satisfied or was treated as having satisfied the work-related requirements under section 6D and 6E of the Jobseekers Act 1995 (work search and work availability requirements); and

(iii)satisfied the further condition specified in paragraph (3) below; or]

There is a difference between old style JSA  and New Style JSA  as the need for work related requirement  isn't there for the old style.

So if a person hasn't paid enough Class 1 NI contributions to be entitled to new style JSA,  they would have only have been entitled to old style JSA  where there is no work-related requirements

Could this be due to old style not being able to make new claim?

EDIT  so if anyone is still on old style (has everyone been put in UC?) then they do not need to do the work-related requirements to get NI credit?

calcotti

There will be small numbers on income based JSA.

Interesting point re which set of rules apply for someone getting NI credits only. Can’t wrap my head around that at the moment!

HillStreetBlues

calcotti said:

There will be small numbers on income based JSA.

Interesting point re which set of rules apply for someone getting NI credits only. Can’t wrap my head around that at the moment!

After rereading the The Social Security (Credits) Regulations 1975
I would say that a person does have to follow the rules that a JCP advisor tells them, so having  to prove job seeking.

It's under (ii)satisfied the further condition specified in paragraph (3) below;

(3) The further condition referred to in paragraph (2)(b)  is that the person concerned—

(a)furnished to the Secretary of State notice in writing of the grounds on which he claims to be entitled to be credited with earnings—

(i)on the first day of the period for which he claims to be so entitled in which the week in question fell; or

(ii)within such further time as may be reasonable in the circumstances of the case; and

b)has provided any evidence required by the Secretary of State that the conditions referred to in paragraph (2)(b) or the conditions and requirements in paragraph (2)(ba)] are satisfied.

So if the JCP is acting for the behalf of the SoS then evidence is needed if that's what is required.

huckster

JCP work Coaches do not have the time to get involved in ticking every box in regard to whether a claimant has met every bit of benefit rules. Appointments take up most of the day.

It is much simpler than that.  Did the claimant attend the appointment ?  When they did attend, what information did they provide regarding applying for employment ?   If people don't attend appointments or provide any information about work search or preparing to find work, why should they receive NI credits ?  Time is given to remedy I.e. book/attend missed appointment and attend providing some evidence of work search.  If after a month, no new appointment booked and attended, no evidence of work search, then the JCP advises the JSA service centre, which would lead to NI credits being stopped.

fiscoking

huckster said:

... If people don't attend appointments or provide any information about work search or preparing to find work, why should they receive NI credits ?  ...

Good question. The answer is because the legislation uncovered above says you have to, which means the JC have to enforce it.
I'm still wondering why the legislation is written that way, given so many other 'benefits' don't require such a burden to claim. Single person council tax discount for example. I've claimed this for years. It was just one form. The status rolls over every year and costs way more than NI credits. The council could pull me in for an 'assessment' every two weeks at their offices and make me prove I still live alone, but they don't. The burden is on me to inform them if my circumstances change, with an appearance before a magistrate if they catch me defrauding them. The system works. The discount is classed as a benefit, which means it can be withdrawn at any time, just like NI credits. The govt. doesn't need an assessment every two weeks either to figure out if someone is still unemployed, the tax system automatically knows because is sees your PAYE tax in real time. A bit of a giveaway. 
I guess the govt. just don't like giving some benefits out on trust - understandable. There's no hard and fast rule though. Appears to be random, hence my original post. No problem though, a workaround has been found.

calcotti

fiscoking said: I'm still wondering why the legislation is written that way, given so many other 'benefits' don't require such a burden to claim. 

Because JSA or unemployment NI credits are paid in response to meeting the requirements.

fiscoking said:
Single person council tax discount for example. 

That's because it's simply a way of recognising that a single person is considered likely to place a lower demand on local authority services than a couple.

fiscoking said: The govt. doesn't need an assessment every two weeks either to figure out if someone is still unemployed, the tax system automatically knows because is sees your PAYE tax in real time. 

You don't get NI credits for being unemployed, you can get them for actively seeking work. Lots of unemployed people are not seeking work (and the self employed are not recorded through PAYE).

Spoonie_Turtle

Worth mentioning that ESA gives NI credits too, and like JSA can be claimed for the credits even if not eligible for payments.  People have to meet the requirements for that as well - be too ill to work, and if placed in the Work-Related Activity Group, attend appointments and fulfill any other work-related activity requirements.

calcotti

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Worth mentioning that ESA gives NI credits too, and like JSA can be claimed for the credits even if not eligible for payments.  People have to meet the requirements for that as well - be too ill to work, and if placed in the Work-Related Activity Group, attend appointments and fulfill any other work-related activity requirements.

We haven’t discussed this because OP said they have no health issues In response to a question I posted.