Should chargeback be against Amex or my bank

mdp963

 

I cannot find any existing topics / posts on this subject 

I ordered 4 ticket from Festicket - ticket handling agent for the American Express BST Hyde Park 2023 Bruce Springsteen Concert on the 6th July 2023

The transaction was processed on the 16/07/2022

Festicket went into administration on 12/09/2022

I made a Section 75 claim with Amex but they have refused to make the refund, giving the following reason ...


 For a claim to fall within the scope of Section 75, there must be a clear link between the individual responsible for repaying the credit under the Credit Card Agreement (the “Debtor”), the credit provider (the “Creditor”), and the supplier of goods and/or services (the “Supplier”). According to our records, we note that the transaction has been submitted through a third-party business (or Aggregator service) Stripe. We understand that Stripe provides an alternative service to businesses or individuals, whereby payments can be accepted via their service without having to sign up as a Merchant directly with a Merchant Acquirer, such as American Express. We consider that the use of Stripe, as an Aggregator service specifically, breaks the link between the Debtor (you), Creditor (American Express) and Supplier (Festicket). Therefore, the provisions of Section 75 do not apply in this case, even if you were unaware of Stripe’s usage.

I consider this to be an outrageous use of a technicality - especially as they are a headline sponsor of the concert series. I would expect them to have made due diligence checks on the use of Stripe as a 'merchant and warned their customers accordingly   

I now intend to make a Chargeback Claim but not sure whether this should be against Amex or my bank 

Any further suggestions / help on how I can recover my £1303.80 would be most appreciated


Thanks in anticipation 

MorningcoffeeIV

A chargeback is against the card you used for the purchase. You don't get a choice.

molerat

IMO the first thing you should do is raise a formal complaint with Amex against the refusal of your s75 claim as you believe Stripe was being used purely as a card payment processor in exactly the same way as Paypal is used when not signed into an account.  If necessary take it all the way to the FOS. I believe this sort of claim has been successful with the FOS before. https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/PayPal-Section75/

mdp963

Thanks  for both responses


As a start, I am composing  a letter to Amex asking them to reconsider the claim - for a variety of reasons , then I will try Chargeback as there may be different 'rules'

When I read the MSE articles on Chargeback and Section 75 there seemed to be an indication of going to your bank 

If this fails I will be taking it to the FOS !!!

Fortunately I have until 27th April to buy the tickets again from the agent that has taken over from Festicket

molerat

When I read the MSE articles on Chargeback and Section 75 there seemed to be an indication of going to your bank

"Your bank" is whoever issued the card. Visa and Mastercard don't issue the cards but instead are issued by different banks under the bank branding so you wouldn't s75 against Visa or Mastercard. Amex cards on the other hand are generally issued by Amex themselves so in this case they are "your bank".

Your complaint to Amex re the s75 rejection should be that the link was not broken as Stripe were acting as a card payment processor and the payment did not go through a third party.

DullGreyGuy

mdp963 said:

As a start, I am composing  a letter to Amex asking them to reconsider the claim - for a variety of reasons , then I will try Chargeback as there may be different 'rules'

The rules are totally different... chargeback are rules set by the card networks themselves (Visa, Mastercard etc). S75 is part of the Consumer Credit Act and so an act of parliament - unfortunately an old piece of legislation that was written in a very different time. 

mdp963

Thanks to all ... I now appreciate the difference between Visa /MC and Amex

DCFC79

Keep the thread updated, it could be useful if anyone else has a similar problem.

mdp963

Amex have, for the second time, refused to pay the Section 75 Claim

Their rationale is that the payment was made (they accept unknown to me !!) to Festicket via a Aggregator called Stripe.

This they claim has broken the his broke the 'debtor, creditor and supplier' chain as this payment cannot be made under Section 75

Stripe was / is not a Amex 'merchant' and therefore Amex do not receive any fees from them 

If they had been a merchant  I suspect Amex would be obliged to pay the claim 

I am disgusted that Amex are hiding behind the technicality that is not made public 

I have now made a Chargeback Claim against Amex and if necessary will pursue the Section 75 Claim via the FOS

phillw

mdp963 said:

I am disgusted that Amex are hiding behind the technicality that is not made public 

They don't particularly publicize any of the section 75 terms. But stripe breaking section 75 isn't new.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2017/04/revealed-section-75-credit-card-protection-may-fail-due-to-payment-processing-loophole---shoppers-beware/ 

You could ask for a dead lock letter to give to the ombudsman, they might back down or you might get lucky if the ombudsman finds in your favor. There is no certainty.

mdp963

Phillw ...

Many thanks for that 

May not need the deadlock letter - as I understand it not required if dispute has gone for a certain time  .... checking that however

I have also made a Chargeback claim against Amex... no response after 14 days !!!

Have made a second attempt to persuade Amex to change their minds .... the refusal seems to be based on an unpublished 'condition' ( if it even exists) which  excludes aggregators such as Stripe 

I think the truth is that Stripe are not an 'approved' merchant and therefore Amex have not received any fees from them 

Apparently ....Festicket holds £5.67 million in its accounts, while payment processor Stripe holds £7.69 million. ...but that has to cover a lot of tickets !!!!

If Amex refuse again I shall ask the FOS to adjudicated. In a recent case the FOS declared that using PayPal as an aggregator did not break the Debtor /Creditor/ Supplier chain. I sahall be asking the FOS to do the same for Stripe