Over 6 months sick-Can I be sacked?

MalMonroe

Hi, I was in a similar situation to yours when I worked in Higher Education and felt I couldn't go back because of the work situation. I was off for six months on full pay and was about to take the nose dive to six months halt pay. However, I was fortunate enough then to be able to apply for a voluntary redundancy and later I began a university undergraduate course (different establishment) and never looked back. 

It's such a shame when our work affects our lives and mental health so badly that we cannot function. I was very depressed and anxious for a long time and, like you, had a few different medications before I was given one that worked for me.

I can say that once I'd left the toxic environment, my mental health improved a lot. It felt like a big disaster at the time but it wasn't.

However, you still have to deal with your employer. Is there, aside from Occupational Health, an HR department with a senior specialist person you can speak to about your situation? Of course you're not going to be able to speak to your line manager when the problem's caused by your work. I imagine she, as was my line manager, is very defensive about not just the environment but the way it's run. I know how very difficult it is, too, to speak of your illness when you are feeling mentally unwell. I didn't want to see or speak to anyone for months. And people who have never suffered such depression don't understand it. They'll say unhelpful things like "what on earth have you got to be depressed about?" - not knowing that it isn't something we can control. Clinical depression is devastating.

That being said, with the right support and the right medication, you can survive it. Have you been having any sort of therapy help at all? I attended six sessions and thought they were absolutely useless. Until afterwards. The therapist I thought was rubbish didn't really say much. I did most of the talking, although there wasn't much of it and then cried and her response was to give me a tissue. Heartless! I thought. But no, afterwards I realised that she had been helpful, just not in the way I'd expected. She'd given me the 'tools' to help me think about my life and my situation. Counselling and therapy can now be delivered via the internet, or even by phone. It's something to think about.

I'll give a link for acas - you could do worse than have a word with someone there because they can certainly advise you of your rights -

https://www.acas.org.uk/checking-sick-pay/if-sick-pay-runs-out

I wish you all the very best for the future, I've been in your situation and it's not nice but you can survive it, with the right kind of help. 

MalMonroe

PS sorry I've only just seen the bit you wrote about meeting with a senior manager and an HR person (duh!) - YES do divulge absolutely everything. It will all be in the strictest confidence and it will help you. And also it will help them to understand you and your illness. 

You have no idea, as yet, what they will suggest to help you, it could be that you CAN be transferred. Just be honest and tell them absolutely everything. Make notes before the meeting, if you can and be sure to let them know you don't think it would be possible for you to go back to work where you were before. Tell them that you think it's time for a change, you've been there 18 years and that sounds pretty reasonable to me. 

All the best, again! Sorry about the confusion.   

elsien

You also need to consider that some people who go off work with stress claim that it’s work related when in reality the stresses are elsewhere. 

I’m not saying that your stress isn’t work related. But if throughout your supervisions and appraisals and your time off sick you have never mentioned work as a factor, then your employer is going to be wondering why not and why you’ve not spoken up before. (Although if they’ve got difficult employees they are more than likely aware of that anyway.)

To reiterate what other people are saying, being “tightlipped” is more than likely going to end with your work terminated on capability grounds. If you want to resolve this and return to work then you have to give them the opportunity to put things which they can’t do if you don’t tell them what the problem is. This is coming from someone who lost a job due to work related depression, so I’m not  unsympathetic. But you also need to be realistic.

theoretica

Is the idea that you might someday go back to your old job at all positive?  It seems from what you have written that it is not.  Do you think you would benefit mentally from knowing you would never go back - either because you arranged a transfer to a different job or your employment ended?

diystarter7

Hi OP
Sorry to hear about your situation
Sadly many are going through and have been through what you are going through
They can effectively sack you if and when they have tried everything possible within reason.
No one wants their business/problems shared with work chumps but when it becomes official,
that is the time. 99% of staff won't share what they are not supposed to but some always will
Do you have a union rep?

What outcomes are you hoping for?
Put yourself in your manager's position and your workmates' shoes, ie staff off sick etc.
Being unwell as you clearly are is not good  and as they say health is wealth.
Tell them what you think may help and try to be flexible about it.

Anyone can be hit with stress and because I was good at my job but a  lot less senior than most and could even do their job with my eyes closed, I made a few foes. My fault as I could not take bS ie jokers trying to tell me what to do when they did not know what they were doing. I stood up to them, it was stressful but I was managing then I had a serious illness on top of that.
I loved my job the package ie close to home, free car parking, flexible hours and almost did as I pleased within T&C's. So I thought, F them and made good mates with a like-minded buddy and I left when I was ready and not them

No one knows what is around the corner so please make the best of what you have.  Trust me, when this is all over, you will be a much stronger person.

Good luck

ps - you may never come back to read the thread but I hope my post helps someone that reads it.

Dakta

I hope the OP does come back to read the thread as there's some good stuff here!

Maybe a bit uncomfortable but it should help

Richard1212

You have my full sympathy, Karry. Depression, panic attacks, probable agoraphobia, worries of possibility of being out of a job in the current economic climate-----all that is a really valid cause for being ill. What can I say---you have such complicated issues ?

First, I'd say ---as others have posted---tell HR everything ( forget the "tight lip" approach; no-one can help at work if you don't tell it like it is ). Would you say your personal problems are the main factor in your illness; or is it the work-related issues that are paramount : that is an important matter which I cannot gauge from your posts. 

What is your age ? Early retirement might be an option that employers might feel the simplest way out ; but, of course, if you're young , we're talking about a possible loss of career.

Why do you have to attend a meeting with senior management ( accompanied by no-one) when you have panic attacks and have hardly been out of your home for months ? Normally , especially as it seems you are in the public sector, your employers would have a " Welfare Officer" whose sole job it is to come to your home and assess the position, given all the facts, and make recommendations to management. Is there no such Welfare Officer---do you need to check. How can they expect to put you through the ordeal with senior management outside your own environment ?

Have you seen a therapist, psychologist, psychiatrist with whom you have been totally honest ? If so, they might be able to help if you tell them the position you are in since you last saw them. Pay for private consultation if all else fails----psychiatric reports carry far more weight than GPs.

As for your salary, I believe 6 months full pay followed by 6 months half pay is the usual public sector system----before any final decision is made. You should know exactly what the rules are if you've been working there for any length of time.

I don't think anyone on this forum can wave a magic wand for you ( though I sincerely wish they could )---because we don't know the whole story and we don't know if you love your job or hate it, whether you want to return or whether you hope for a good severance pay or early retirement provisions applied , depending on your age.

I wish you all the very best. You WILL come through this, whether you sort out the present dilemmas or whether you leave your personal problems behind and leave your "toxic" job colleagues behind---and start a fresh life.

Please let us know how you are faring from time to time, if you want to do so; and let us know if we can help, especially with any specifics as the matter progresses. Keep in touch. You are not alone.   

TBagpuss

OP, I am sory that you hare having such a hard time and I hope you are able to speak to a thearapist or cousellor which might help. It's very hard as one of the symprtons of depression if often that it makes it so much harder to actually do anything, even things which would be likely to help! 

As others have said, it is possible for you to be dismissed on capcity grounds if you are not able to do your job, for medical or other reasons. It would only be unfiar if you were calssed as having a disability and they had failed t make reasonable adjustments BUT it is my understandingthat reasonable adjustment means what is reasonable nbased on the information available to them, so if you haven't / won't tell them what the specifc issues are at work then they can't take those into acount, and therfore them not doing taking them into account or making adjustments to accommodate those issues would be reasonable. 

If you do tell them what the issues are one of two things will happen. Eithr they will be able to address thse issues, whether by offering you a trnasfer, or the option of someremorte working, or looking at directly addressing any inappropriate becvaiour by others, in which case you may be abl to retun to work and find work less stressful, or they will not make changes / won'r b able to offer accommodations or changes what are enough for you to feel you can return, in which case you're no worse off than you are at the moment.

So as others have said, you do need to be open about the specific issues at work which are contributing to your health issues, since thoe are the only elements that they can address.

Although you are not in a union you can ask to be acccommpanied by a coworker if you want and while they are not required to allow it, if you askedto have a friend or family member with you for support then they might allow that . You could also ask for any meeting to be remote or to take place away from your normal workplace, if you think that going there will in itself be too difficult. 

Good luck

pinkshoes

Have you thought that perhaps the job isn't for you?

A colleague/friend left a job as they found the environment toxic, but no one else (including me) found it so.

They changed careers and have since realised that it wasn't the company that was toxic rather than the job not being a good match for themselves as they found the pace and challenges too stressful, struggled with them, then let people down who got frustrated with them (thus their thinking that the environment was toxic as people got annoyed they were not "pulling their weight"). 

It's the same with teaching. Some people find it really stressful and end up on long term sick leave due to stress, and yet others thrive in the same conditions. 

Different people suit different careers. Nothing wrong with that.

If you are finding the company a toxic environment and this is contributing to your MH, then you need to let them know exactly what the problem is, as otherwise they cannot help you or make adjustments.

If I were you, I'd just quit or ask to be let go on medical grounds. Sounds like the thought of coming back to this job is adding to your MH issues. You can then focus on feeling better and looking for a job that is more suited to your personality and needs. 

concerneduk2020

I’ve been in the manager role in a similar situation. Mental health problems can count as a disability which means your employer has to make reasonable adjustments to help you return to work. However there are two limitations here, firstly the adjustments has to be reasonable for the business you are in. That could be flexible working, it could be changing your team, it could be giving you extra support in certain areas but it does very much depend on your job. For example if you work in a shop it would not be reasonable to ask for home working.

the second limitation is you have to tell them what you need, or let occupational health make recommendations. You employer is neither a doctor nor a mind reader, if you need something to change to enable you to return to work, you need to tell them what the issue is. You don’t need to tell your direct manager but you do need to tell HR. 

If you don’t tell them what you need, they can’t help, and they won’t take actions based on a hunch, because if they treat you differently to other employees without a medical reason then that can get them in trouble. For example with my team member, they seemed to me to suffer from stress due to workload, but I couldn’t reduce their workload because they didn’t tell me what they needed. If I had reduced their workload without medical advice then that could have been seen as treating them differently from other employees.

Basically yes they can dismiss you, but you should give them the chance to help you first.