Super specific kitchen insulation question

mdori003

stuart45 said:

When you say it's a suspended floor, is it timber joists or block and beam?

I'm not actually 100% but i think it is timber joists?

Mutton_Geoff

Make sure there are no gaps around pipes going through walls, trim and lay cheap vinyl flooring over the floorboards if they have gaps. Seal the gap between walls and floor behind cabinets. Of course all a lot easier to do before the units went in.

mdori003

Mutton_Geoff said:

Make sure there are no gaps around pipes going through walls, trim and lay cheap vinyl flooring over the floorboards if they have gaps. Seal the gap between walls and floor behind cabinets. Of course all a lot easier to do before the units went in.

As you and @ThisIsWeird predicted there are holes around pipes and a gap between wall meeting floor (at least my interpretation of the below photos would be that). Can I ask what you would suggest for filling? Or should I get someone with a bit of experience to do it? 

Thanks again

grumbler

mdori003 said:

Mutton_Geoff said:

Make sure there are no gaps around pipes going through walls, trim and lay cheap vinyl flooring over the floorboards if they have gaps. Seal the gap between walls and floor behind cabinets. Of course all a lot easier to do before the units went in.

Can I ask what you would suggest for filling? Or should I get someone with a bit of experience to do it? 

I think expanding foam can work well here, at least for biggish gaps.

MikeJXE

That looks like a suspended floor and has probably got airbricks outside in the bottom 2 courses of the damp coarse

As grumbles says expanding foam should be ok but you will get air coming in via the slightest crack or hole. 

Can you not put the kickboards on and seal them in place ? 

Section62

mdori003 said:

Mutton_Geoff said:

Make sure there are no gaps around pipes going through walls, trim and lay cheap vinyl flooring over the floorboards if they have gaps. Seal the gap between walls and floor behind cabinets. Of course all a lot easier to do before the units went in.

As you and @ThisIsWeird predicted there are holes around pipes and a gap between wall meeting floor (at least my interpretation of the below photos would be that). Can I ask what you would suggest for filling? Or should I get someone with a bit of experience to do it? 

Bear in mind sealing the cold out also means sealing the heat in.  If those pipes aren't insulated under the floor then filling the gaps risks increasing the probability of the pipes freezing.  The same goes for sealing the kickboards up, or stuffing the void under the units with insulation.

You don't want heat to be escaping, but if it is currently helping to protect vulnerable pipes then it is cheaper to have the heat loss (on a short-term basis) rather than having a plumber in to repair a burst pipe under the floor.

FreeBear

grumbler said:

mdori003 said:

Mutton_Geoff said:

Make sure there are no gaps around pipes going through walls, trim and lay cheap vinyl flooring over the floorboards if they have gaps. Seal the gap between walls and floor behind cabinets. Of course all a lot easier to do before the units went in.

Can I ask what you would suggest for filling? Or should I get someone with a bit of experience to do it? 

I think expanding foam can work well here, at least for biggish gaps.

It is going to be fun getting a can in there... Get a long length of flexible PVC tubing (say 600mm long) to extend the nozzle on the can. Tape a bit of dowel to the end of the pipe so that you don't have to try and squeeze under the cabinets.

mdori003

Section62 said:

mdori003 said:

Mutton_Geoff said:

Make sure there are no gaps around pipes going through walls, trim and lay cheap vinyl flooring over the floorboards if they have gaps. Seal the gap between walls and floor behind cabinets. Of course all a lot easier to do before the units went in.

As you and @ThisIsWeird predicted there are holes around pipes and a gap between wall meeting floor (at least my interpretation of the below photos would be that). Can I ask what you would suggest for filling? Or should I get someone with a bit of experience to do it? 

Bear in mind sealing the cold out also means sealing the heat in.  If those pipes aren't insulated under the floor then filling the gaps risks increasing the probability of the pipes freezing.  The same goes for sealing the kickboards up, or stuffing the void under the units with insulation.

You don't want heat to be escaping, but if it is currently helping to protect vulnerable pipes then it is cheaper to have the heat loss (on a short-term basis) rather than having a plumber in to repair a burst pipe under the floor.

Cheers all. When you say on a short term basis would you suggest doing something else in the medium term as well (insulating the pipes first?)

The kickboards back on but there is a space between it and the bottom of the units, probably between 1-2cm. Did consider just sticking some blue.electrical tape along it in the short term. 

Consensus seems to be to try expanding foam but also unlikely to be a Panacea - would some loft insulation be useful still (aside from the pipes issue). 

I'm assuming getting a plumber to do anything with pipes underneath a suspended floor will be pretty much impossible given there is engineered parquet down?

Section62

mdori003 said:

Cheers all. When you say on a short term basis would you suggest doing something else in the medium term as well (insulating the pipes first?)

Short-term as in the amount of money you save over the next few months by insulating won't offset the potential cost of repairing a pipe if the new insulation leads to you having a burst.  In the space of a few months you might not even recover the cost of a can of expanding foam.

Long-term you want to get this sorted because draughts do cost money, and uninsulated pipes in cold spaces is risking pipe bursts (and if any of the pipes are for hot water or central heating you are wasting more money there).

The point being that a quick fix insulation job could cost you more in repair bills than you could ever save from reducing heat loss.

mdori003 said:

I'm assuming getting a plumber to do anything with pipes underneath a suspended floor will be pretty much impossible given there is engineered parquet down?

It depends whether there is any access under the floor - sometimes there is enough of a void under the suspended floor to crawl through.  But it is more likely the plumber will want the floor lifted for access.

This is why you need to be cautious about filling those holes with expanding foam.  If that cuts off warm air which is currently keeping the underfloor void above freezing temperature then you risk having uninsulated pipes freezing and bursting and an expensive repair bill.

The same thing applies to sealing up the kickboard or filling the void with insulation.  Prevention of freezing conditions, and avoidance of condensation and mould, depend on getting the right amount of warmth and/or air flow.  Changing the conditions by blocking airflow off can lead to problems that are far more serious than a cold draught.

The first thing to do is to find out whether the pipes below the floorboards are properly insulated, and if not, find a way of insulating them to a level which is appropriate for the level of cold they are exposed to.

mdori003

Section62 said:

mdori003 said:

Cheers all. When you say on a short term basis would you suggest doing something else in the medium term as well (insulating the pipes first?)

Short-term as in the amount of money you save over the next few months by insulating won't offset the potential cost of repairing a pipe if the new insulation leads to you having a burst.  In the space of a few months you might not even recover the cost of a can of expanding foam.

Long-term you want to get this sorted because draughts do cost money, and uninsulated pipes in cold spaces is risking pipe bursts (and if any of the pipes are for hot water or central heating you are wasting more money there).

The point being that a quick fix insulation job could cost you more in repair bills than you could ever save from reducing heat loss.

mdori003 said:

I'm assuming getting a plumber to do anything with pipes underneath a suspended floor will be pretty much impossible given there is engineered parquet down?

It depends whether there is any access under the floor - sometimes there is enough of a void under the suspended floor to crawl through.  But it is more likely the plumber will want the floor lifted for access.

This is why you need to be cautious about filling those holes with expanding foam.  If that cuts off warm air which is currently keeping the underfloor void above freezing temperature then you risk having uninsulated pipes freezing and bursting and an expensive repair bill.

The same thing applies to sealing up the kickboard or filling the void with insulation.  Prevention of freezing conditions, and avoidance of condensation and mould, depend on getting the right amount of warmth and/or air flow.  Changing the conditions by blocking airflow off can lead to problems that are far more serious than a cold draught.

The first thing to do is to find out whether the pipes below the floorboards are properly insulated, and if not, find a way of insulating them to a level which is appropriate for the level of cold they are exposed to.

Thanks for this. Given the draft is more annoying than anything else I'll do as you suggest and get a plumber to take a look before trying anything, the risk/benefit ratio seems pretty clear.