Express parking airport pcn

mountainlad123

I received a PCN in Nov22. It referred to a parking offence in the express carpark with 2 photos of my registered vehicle. I replied with the standard reply and did not name driver. 
They have now rejected my appeal. My vehicle is a large mpv car. The v5 describes it as DIESEL CAR. They state the car park is not for vans minibuses or vehicles with more than 7 seats. They state they are unsure of my vehicle classification and have asked for my V5 which I will not be providing. 

- I have read that dropping off and picking up is not parking? The PCN, rejection, and signs inside the carpark all refer to parking. 

- I regularly have seats removed from the vehicle often reducing it to as little as 3 seats to allow the driver to transport his disabled daughter amd equipment. Is the 7 seat rule based on the v5 or number of seats in the vehicle at the time? 

-Another driver has taken the same vehicle into the carpark 2 times over the previous month with no consequence. This person was one of those waiting to be picked up and instructed the driver to enter the carpark to pick her up.

- I attach photos of the entrance.


 The fork left is for vans and minibuses only and mine is a car. Ahead is for cars only. Between the 2 is a lower white circular sign ordering 'CARS USE THIS LANE ONLY'.  Above the car lane is various info relating to height (mine is within) and I also note the max 7 seats on the right. So at this point in a live busy lane, if you have been able to digest all of this info, you establish that your car is not permitted to use any of the car parks so the only option would be to get all vehicles behind to reverse then complete an illegal turn across the solid hazard road markings? 

I've read advice in newbies section to not appeal via IAC without firm evidence. Is this worth appealing at this stage ?

Many thanks 

Fruitcake

It is not an offence.

Which PPC please? (VCS?) 

Which airport?

When you say you used the standard reply, do you mean the one from the NEWBIES, or one from elsewhere?

Plan A is always to complain to the landowner and your MP.

Loading and unloading of goods or people is not parking. Jopson v Homeguard applies.

Airport byelaws apply therefore the keeper cannot be held liable.

If the vehicle is classed as a car as per the V5C, then an IAS appeal might be worthwhile as long as the number of seats does not exceed 7. (Do not tell us if it does. PPCs monitor this forum).

I used to have a big 7 seater car, but I could take some out to make it anywhere between a 2 seater and a 7 seater, and anything in between. I could also take the two middle single seats out and push the rear 3 seater bench seat forwards.

Unless the signs specifically state that the number of seats refer to that indicated on the V5C, then it is reasonable to believe it refers to the number of seats in the vehicle at the time of the alleged event.
Section 69 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 applies.

If you do decide to do an IAS appeal then I suggest you include an image of the vehicle in the seat configuration relevant at the material time.

mountainlad123

Thsnks

It is uk parking patrol office at Newcastle Airport. 
The initial appeal I used was from the newbies section. 
I tried to appeal to the airport first via phone without success and couldn't find an email. I might pay another visit and try to speak with a site manager.. I'd like to think a reasonable person standing in front of those entrance signs would be sympathetic to my drivers situation. 

If airport bylaws state the keeper can not be responsible, where can they go with this if I don't disclose driver? 

Umkomaas

Let's have a look at a redacted (of any personal data) copy of the first letter they sent to you - front and back - but please leave any dates showing.

Fruitcake

Do all complaints in writing. A 'phone call is not worth the paper upon which it is writ.
Never, ever 'phone a parking company or any of their agents.



See what others say, but f a landowner cancellation is not forthcoming, I would do an IAS appeal showing a redacted copy of the relevant part of the V5C that shows the vehicle classification.
If the number of seats on the V5C does not help your case, then do not show that part. Perhaps just show the top half of the page for example.

Add your own photos of the seat configuration at the time of the alleged event, if it helps your case. Note that wheelchairs do not form part of the configuration.

Add the relevant parts of the PoFA that refer to non-relevant land such as where byelaws apply, and that the keeper cannot therefore be held liable.

Add the relevant parts from the airport byelaws that a driver can and an owner may be liable for a byelaws breach. State that the keeper cannot be held liable for a byelaws breach, and that stopping to drop off is not a byelaws breach. (Even though the keeper cannot be held liable, the PPC will try to say that it is reasonable to assume the keeper was the driver. They may even bring up the much rubbished case of Elliot v Loake)

Add the relevant parts of the Jopson v Homeguard case where the judge said around paragraphs 19 and 20 that loading and unloading (of goods or people) is not parking. The transcript is available online.


Note that you can't copy and paste into the IAS appeal box, so everything will have to be typed out longhand.
Do not miss the appeal window. You normally only get 21 days despite the fact that the ADR Regulations say it should be not less than twelve months.

fisherjim

From Newcastle Airports own website, they have the following advice, note no strict rulings except as regards to height in the Express Parking and the eight seat rule in Premium Meet and Greet:

The Express Pick Up and Drop Off car park is located immediately outside the terminal at Newcastle International Airport and offers the most convenient and hassle-free facility for picking up or dropping off passengers. To find out where this car park is located, please click here.

The car park is ticketless, camera systems record vehicle entry and exit and an appropriate tariff is requested on exit. Payment is made through coin hoppers or by credit card (contactless is available)

The car park is suitable for any vehicles with a maximum of 7 seats. Any vehicles with more than this are advised to use the Minibus / Van Car Park.

https://www.newcastleairport.com/car-parking/express-car-parking/

Many of our car parks do not have height restrictions; however, there are restrictions to the following car parks:

• Express – 2.0 metres
• Mini Bus/Van – 2.9 metres
• Premium Meet & Greet – 2.7 metres

Please note: We are unable to accept vehicles with eight seats and above at our Premium Meet & Greet facility. Parking for this type of vehicle is available in our Long Stay, Short Stay 1, and Short Stay 2 car parks.

https://www.newcastleairport.com/car-parking/car-parking-faqs/

Can't see anything relating to the issuing of pcn's either.

The entrance signage is as usual diabolical and does not conform to any ATA COP. The only readable signage states cars only max 7 seats with a max height 2m, if that description fitted the vehicle where is the problem, it's just a greedy PPC making up rules as the go along.

https://www.google.com/maps/@55.0368064,-1.7119104,3a,75y,70.01h,82.2t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-vXrWwslEEn9YC_-SYUCRg!2e0!5s20160601T000000!7i16384!8i8192

mountainlad123

Thanks for all your inputs. 

This is the PCN and their reply. 





My v5 states it is a car

And their website,.. 
"The car park is suitable for any vehicles with a maximum of 7 seats. Any vehicles with more than this are advised to use the Minibus / Van Car Park.", 
So a user is required to find and read the terms and conditions of the website before using the car park and then ignore all the instructions ordering cars into a specific lane and to use the lane marked only 'buses and vans'. Madness

So appealing via IAS, and we've established that the airport bylaws and the pcn specify it is for the driver only, should I provide evidence that I was not the driver? 

Coupon-mad

If you have evidence that you were not the driver, then absolutely yes.  You need to show you are not liable.

Also state that this is a car which complied with all rules including height (and not being a van, and not having more than seven seats).  This operator has issued a speculative PCN and even admitted 'we are unsure of the specification of the vehicle'.  It is in fact a diesel car and only 6 seats were in place; the boot being used for the luggage that day, and not any additional seats. The operator has guessed (wrongly) who was driving and guessed (wrongly) that this was a 'van' with more than seven seats and has not made a prima facie case about liability nor about any Airport terms being breached.


IAS is all about evidence so you also need to upload all evidence including your photos of the signs.

B789

"The car park is suitable for any vehicles with a maximum of 7 seats. Any vehicles with more than this are advised to use the Minibus / Van Car Park."

Isn't the operative word here "ADVISED"? Nothing there that implies it is mandatory... is there?

fisherjim

That letter is a joke proving they are clutching at straws.

Fruitcake

Show us your IAS appeal before submitting it. Make sure you use the free service and not the one where you pay £15 to guarantee that you will lose.

As already mentioned, include the following: -

A copy of the V5C that shows the VRM and vehicle class, but not the number of seats.

Include a photo' of the vehicle seating configuration that was in use at the time of the alleged event that will clearly show a number of seats less than eight.

The relevant wording of Part 2, Section 69 of the CRA 2015.

Relevant paragraphs of Jopson v Homeguard including the case number and the judge's name.

Relevant parts of the airport byelaws showing that certain seating configurations are not a byelaw offence and that the keeper cannot be held liable.

The relevant parts of the PoFA that show the airport is not relevant land and therefore the keeper cannot be held liable.