Header water tank float valve confusion

Jonboy_1984

grumbler said:

plumb1_2 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Ganga said:

Did the previous one have a tube that went down under the water to silence it?

Actually, that's a bloomin' good point!  Even if the previous one didn't have a tube, it would be dead easy to buy a foot of plastic tubing of an appropriate diameter for a few pence from any DIY shed and stick it on.  Problem solved.  Hats off to you Sir/Madam for an excellent idea.

Wrong, as you are breaking water bye laws.

What about toilet cisterns then? Soft 'tubes' made from soft film are pretty common there.

The point behind the rules is to create an air gap between the mains inlet and the stored (potentially dirty) water, because in certain circumstances a fault in the water supply can suck water back into the mains and they would then need disinfecting before supply could be restored to the neighbourhood.

There is a gap between the toilet cistern (which is normally sealed) and the bowl when not flushing, plus in most older properties a further gap in the main cold water tank.

(It is for the same reason showers have a hose clip to prevent the shower head dangling below the rim of the bathtub if correctly installed).

grumbler

Jonboy_1984 said:

grumbler said:

plumb1_2 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Ganga said:

Did the previous one have a tube that went down under the water to silence it?

Actually, that's a bloomin' good point!  Even if the previous one didn't have a tube, it would be dead easy to buy a foot of plastic tubing of an appropriate diameter for a few pence from any DIY shed and stick it on.  Problem solved.  Hats off to you Sir/Madam for an excellent idea.

Wrong, as you are breaking water bye laws.

What about toilet cisterns then? Soft 'tubes' made from soft film are pretty common there.

The point behind the rules is to create an air gap between the mains inlet and the stored (potentially dirty) water, because in certain circumstances a fault in the water supply can suck water back into the mains and they would then need disinfecting before supply could be restored to the neighbourhood.

The point is to prevent sucking in the fist place, e.g. by creating an air gap.

If a 'tube' is made from soft plastic film, you can pump water through it, but It's impossible to suck water back.

For this particular purpose it can even be a piece of film rolled into a tube with a small overlap, not a real tube.

k1rkyc

plumb1_2 said:

Could be a number of things 
1- there is no backplate fitted to the tank, thus making the valve/tank flex when the valve operates 
2- could be you have a quarter turn valve fitted to the supply and it’s not open fully, creating a noise. Best with a full bore valve.
3- you might have loose unclipped pipes vibrating 
4- water pressure to high
5- a combination of any of the above 

I would fit a backplate and change the ballvalve to a part2 valve, check any valves are fully open.
fitting a delayed action valve will cure it usually but they are costly 
oh and fit a bye law 30 kit to the tank and make sure all the pipes have min 25mm wall lagging.

oh oh don’t get the same plumbers back.

Thank you for your reply. I thought this was a part 2 valve? He said this is the only type of valve we should have?

the valve to shut the water off in the loft just outside the tap is one that you turn with a screwdriver. It’s fully open….. 
only some of the pipes are lagged up there. 

The tank has no insulation around it or a lid… I think that may help?

I hate it when things go wrong and someone tells you something that you don’t trust! 

Thank you everyone!

sandy700

Try turning the valve a quarter turn off, I have to do that for my toilet cistern, it sounds like a jet plane when it is fully on.

bob_a_builder

grumbler said:

Jonboy_1984 said:

grumbler said:

plumb1_2 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Ganga said:

Did the previous one have a tube that went down under the water to silence it?

Actually, that's a bloomin' good point!  Even if the previous one didn't have a tube, it would be dead easy to buy a foot of plastic tubing of an appropriate diameter for a few pence from any DIY shed and stick it on.  Problem solved.  Hats off to you Sir/Madam for an excellent idea.

Wrong, as you are breaking water bye laws.

What about toilet cisterns then? Soft 'tubes' made from soft film are pretty common there.

The point behind the rules is to create an air gap between the mains inlet and the stored (potentially dirty) water, because in certain circumstances a fault in the water supply can suck water back into the mains and they would then need disinfecting before supply could be restored to the neighbourhood.

The point is to prevent sucking in the fist place, e.g. by creating an air gap.

If a 'tube' is made from soft plastic film, you can pump water through it, but It's impossible to suck water back.

For this particular purpose it can even be a piece of film rolled into a tube with a small overlap, not a real tube.

Just recently replaced my loo valve, existing one did have soft film tube, which reduced the noise greatly, as I recall when I fitted the ones with tubes some 20+ years ago specifically to reduce the noise 

When you buy the replacement now, although the Screwfix picture shows a tube - its no longer supplied

https://www.screwfix.com/p/torbeck-bottom-entry-fill-valve-1-2/8120t

bob_a_builder

plumb1_2 said:

grumbler said:

plumb1_2 said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Ganga said:

Did the previous one have a tube that went down under the water to silence it?

Actually, that's a bloomin' good point!  Even if the previous one didn't have a tube, it would be dead easy to buy a foot of plastic tubing of an appropriate diameter for a few pence from any DIY shed and stick it on.  Problem solved.  Hats off to you Sir/Madam for an excellent idea.

Wrong, as you are breaking water bye laws.

What about toilet cisterns then? Soft 'tubes' made from soft film are pretty common there.

Then they should have a dcv fitted

Please can you point us to some suitable DCV's  since the new cistern valve I have now is bottom fill - so no air gap 

ThisIsWeird

k1rkyc said:

Hi everyone! We recently had issues in the loft where the header tank valve was dripping. We had a plumber come and replace it, and although he said it was sorted, it was still dripping. He fitted the part in a rush and we didn't feel confident with him so we asked another plumber to come. He said we needed a different type of float valve as the one fitted was meant for a toilet, not a header tank....... 

He's since fitted what he assures us is the correct type, and the dripping has stopped, but the noise when the hot water taps are used and the tank filling up is awful. It's 10 times louder than it used to be! We've asked him again and he's basically said there's nothing he can do......

Here's what he's fitted. Can anyone please tell me if this is correct and if it's supposed to sound like a plane is departing the runway each time we use any hot water?! Thank you!

From what you describe, you are not suffering from the noise of the water landing in the tank, but from the new valve resonating from the force of the water passing through it - classic 'foghorn' :-)

So, adding a plastic tube - which you seemingly shouldn't anyway - is unlikely to fix it. 'Plumb' gave you a good list of options to try.

As an initial step - since you really should do this anyway (and is another reason why you shouldn't invite that plumber back) is to buy the 'by-law' kit, which has a lid (which I hope will fit neatly - but might not), and insulation jacket (no harm in having two), and ballcock (two is alwasy good) and other bits that you are unlikely to use (I think they prevent insects crawling up the overflow pipe and in to your tank?!)

There is a chance - not very high - that fitting a snug lid could help as it may dampen or change the resonant frquency of the bc. Also worth trying - as it's easy - turning down the isolating valve as this will reduce the flow to the bc, and even the pressure to it until it's nearly fully off. This might work, but you'd need to ensure the bc still passes a healthy flow.

There's even tricks like dismantling the bc - easy to do in situ, but don't drop any bits into the tank - and coating the rubber washer with silicone grease - I've done that successfully a few times, and it's often enough to dampen the vibration and prevent it building up to a resonance.

I think, other than that, it'll require a bc-off job to add a stiffening plate to the side of the tank, in which case you might as well replace the bc with the correct P2 type (and give it a good silicone-greasing first).

Do you have any other noise issues with your plumbing? And 'hammer' or knocks when you turn taps and toilets on and off? I wonder if your water pressure is a bit high, so you might benefit from having a Pressure-Reducing-Valve fitted after your mains stopcock? (But only if you are noticeably above 3 bar).

On a connected issue - isn't the water level in that tank a bit high (if your CH is cold)? I don;t know if it is, but I'd always set mine lower than that to provide plenty of elbow room; as your system heats up, expanded water is fed into that tank via its lowest pipe, and the level will rise to a max level. You don't want that 'highest' level to be too close to that overflow, I don't think.

Another solution could be to fit a 'Torbeck' type valve, but I don;t know if these are allowed in these tanks? If they are, these operate in a completely different way, and shut off 'instantly', so leaving out the partially-closed resonating part.

Apodemus

ThisIsWeird said:

k1rkyc said:

Hi everyone! We recently had issues in the loft where the header tank valve was dripping. We had a plumber come and replace it, and although he said it was sorted, it was still dripping. He fitted the part in a rush and we didn't feel confident with him so we asked another plumber to come. He said we needed a different type of float valve as the one fitted was meant for a toilet, not a header tank....... 

He's since fitted what he assures us is the correct type, and the dripping has stopped, but the noise when the hot water taps are used and the tank filling up is awful. It's 10 times louder than it used to be! We've asked him again and he's basically said there's nothing he can do......

Here's what he's fitted. Can anyone please tell me if this is correct and if it's supposed to sound like a plane is departing the runway each time we use any hot water?! Thank you!

On a connected issue - isn't the water level in that tank a bit high (if your CH is cold)? I don;t know if it is, but I'd always set mine lower than that to provide plenty of elbow room; as your system heats up, expanded water is fed into that tank via its lowest pipe, and the level will rise to a max level. You don't want that 'highest' level to be too close to that overflow, I don't think.

I believe it is the header tank for the domestic hot water system, not a CH header tank,  So the fill level looks to be correct.

k1rkyc

ThisIsWeird said:

k1rkyc said:

Hi everyone! We recently had issues in the loft where the header tank valve was dripping. We had a plumber come and replace it, and although he said it was sorted, it was still dripping. He fitted the part in a rush and we didn't feel confident with him so we asked another plumber to come. He said we needed a different type of float valve as the one fitted was meant for a toilet, not a header tank....... 

He's since fitted what he assures us is the correct type, and the dripping has stopped, but the noise when the hot water taps are used and the tank filling up is awful. It's 10 times louder than it used to be! We've asked him again and he's basically said there's nothing he can do......

Here's what he's fitted. Can anyone please tell me if this is correct and if it's supposed to sound like a plane is departing the runway each time we use any hot water?! Thank you!

From what you describe, you are not suffering from the noise of the water landing in the tank, but from the new valve resonating from the force of the water passing through it - classic 'foghorn' :-)

So, adding a plastic tube - which you seemingly shouldn't anyway - is unlikely to fix it. 'Plumb' gave you a good list of options to try.

As an initial step - since you really should do this anyway (and is another reason why you shouldn't invite that plumber back) is to buy the 'by-law' kit, which has a lid (which I hope will fit neatly - but might not), and insulation jacket (no harm in having two), and ballcock (two is alwasy good) and other bits that you are unlikely to use (I think they prevent insects crawling up the overflow pipe and in to your tank?!)

There is a chance - not very high - that fitting a snug lid could help as it may dampen or change the resonant frquency of the bc. Also worth trying - as it's easy - turning down the isolating valve as this will reduce the flow to the bc, and even the pressure to it until it's nearly fully off. This might work, but you'd need to ensure the bc still passes a healthy flow.

There's even tricks like dismantling the bc - easy to do in situ, but don't drop any bits into the tank - and coating the rubber washer with silicone grease - I've done that successfully a few times, and it's often enough to dampen the vibration and prevent it building up to a resonance.

I think, other than that, it'll require a bc-off job to add a stiffening plate to the side of the tank, in which case you might as well replace the bc with the correct P2 type (and give it a good silicone-greasing first).

Do you have any other noise issues with your plumbing? And 'hammer' or knocks when you turn taps and toilets on and off? I wonder if your water pressure is a bit high, so you might benefit from having a Pressure-Reducing-Valve fitted after your mains stopcock? (But only if you are noticeably above 3 bar).

On a connected issue - isn't the water level in that tank a bit high (if your CH is cold)? I don;t know if it is, but I'd always set mine lower than that to provide plenty of elbow room; as your system heats up, expanded water is fed into that tank via its lowest pipe, and the level will rise to a max level. You don't want that 'highest' level to be too close to that overflow, I don't think.

Another solution could be to fit a 'Torbeck' type valve, but I don;t know if these are allowed in these tanks? If they are, these operate in a completely different way, and shut off 'instantly', so leaving out the partially-closed resonating part.

ThisIsWeird said:

k1rkyc said:

Hi everyone! We recently had issues in the loft where the header tank valve was dripping. We had a plumber come and replace it, and although he said it was sorted, it was still dripping. He fitted the part in a rush and we didn't feel confident with him so we asked another plumber to come. He said we needed a different type of float valve as the one fitted was meant for a toilet, not a header tank....... 

He's since fitted what he assures us is the correct type, and the dripping has stopped, but the noise when the hot water taps are used and the tank filling up is awful. It's 10 times louder than it used to be! We've asked him again and he's basically said there's nothing he can do......

Here's what he's fitted. Can anyone please tell me if this is correct and if it's supposed to sound like a plane is departing the runway each time we use any hot water?! Thank you!

From what you describe, you are not suffering from the noise of the water landing in the tank, but from the new valve resonating from the force of the water passing through it - classic 'foghorn' :-)

So, adding a plastic tube - which you seemingly shouldn't anyway - is unlikely to fix it. 'Plumb' gave you a good list of options to try.

As an initial step - since you really should do this anyway (and is another reason why you shouldn't invite that plumber back) is to buy the 'by-law' kit, which has a lid (which I hope will fit neatly - but might not), and insulation jacket (no harm in having two), and ballcock (two is alwasy good) and other bits that you are unlikely to use (I think they prevent insects crawling up the overflow pipe and in to your tank?!)

There is a chance - not very high - that fitting a snug lid could help as it may dampen or change the resonant frquency of the bc. Also worth trying - as it's easy - turning down the isolating valve as this will reduce the flow to the bc, and even the pressure to it until it's nearly fully off. This might work, but you'd need to ensure the bc still passes a healthy flow.

There's even tricks like dismantling the bc - easy to do in situ, but don't drop any bits into the tank - and coating the rubber washer with silicone grease - I've done that successfully a few times, and it's often enough to dampen the vibration and prevent it building up to a resonance.

I think, other than that, it'll require a bc-off job to add a stiffening plate to the side of the tank, in which case you might as well replace the bc with the correct P2 type (and give it a good silicone-greasing first).

Do you have any other noise issues with your plumbing? And 'hammer' or knocks when you turn taps and toilets on and off? I wonder if your water pressure is a bit high, so you might benefit from having a Pressure-Reducing-Valve fitted after your mains stopcock? (But only if you are noticeably above 3 bar).

On a connected issue - isn't the water level in that tank a bit high (if your CH is cold)? I don;t know if it is, but I'd always set mine lower than that to provide plenty of elbow room; as your system heats up, expanded water is fed into that tank via its lowest pipe, and the level will rise to a max level. You don't want that 'highest' level to be too close to that overflow, I don't think.

Another solution could be to fit a 'Torbeck' type valve, but I don;t know if these are allowed in these tanks? If they are, these operate in a completely different way, and shut off 'instantly', so leaving out the partially-closed resonating part.

Thank you for your reply!

I asked the plumber if I could turn the valve outside the tank slightly to stop the water filling so quickly but he said he wasn't allowed to as he's water board approved?!

The noise seems to be the cold water from the tank re-filling the hot water tank below it. It's very loud, and then just towards the end when the arm of the valve moves up, it's a little louder again!

With regards to a knocking/hammer noise, YES! we have recently noticed that! We don't have any way of knowing what our water pressure is, but we had to turn the cold water valve down under the kitchen tap as it was too powerful! our mains stop cosk is behind the toilet so not sure how a PRV would fit?

k1rkyc

ThisIsWeird said:

k1rkyc said:

Hi everyone! We recently had issues in the loft where the header tank valve was dripping. We had a plumber come and replace it, and although he said it was sorted, it was still dripping. He fitted the part in a rush and we didn't feel confident with him so we asked another plumber to come. He said we needed a different type of float valve as the one fitted was meant for a toilet, not a header tank....... 

He's since fitted what he assures us is the correct type, and the dripping has stopped, but the noise when the hot water taps are used and the tank filling up is awful. It's 10 times louder than it used to be! We've asked him again and he's basically said there's nothing he can do......

Here's what he's fitted. Can anyone please tell me if this is correct and if it's supposed to sound like a plane is departing the runway each time we use any hot water?! Thank you!

From what you describe, you are not suffering from the noise of the water landing in the tank, but from the new valve resonating from the force of the water passing through it - classic 'foghorn' :-)

So, adding a plastic tube - which you seemingly shouldn't anyway - is unlikely to fix it. 'Plumb' gave you a good list of options to try.

As an initial step - since you really should do this anyway (and is another reason why you shouldn't invite that plumber back) is to buy the 'by-law' kit, which has a lid (which I hope will fit neatly - but might not), and insulation jacket (no harm in having two), and ballcock (two is alwasy good) and other bits that you are unlikely to use (I think they prevent insects crawling up the overflow pipe and in to your tank?!)

There is a chance - not very high - that fitting a snug lid could help as it may dampen or change the resonant frquency of the bc. Also worth trying - as it's easy - turning down the isolating valve as this will reduce the flow to the bc, and even the pressure to it until it's nearly fully off. This might work, but you'd need to ensure the bc still passes a healthy flow.

There's even tricks like dismantling the bc - easy to do in situ, but don't drop any bits into the tank - and coating the rubber washer with silicone grease - I've done that successfully a few times, and it's often enough to dampen the vibration and prevent it building up to a resonance.

I think, other than that, it'll require a bc-off job to add a stiffening plate to the side of the tank, in which case you might as well replace the bc with the correct P2 type (and give it a good silicone-greasing first).

Do you have any other noise issues with your plumbing? And 'hammer' or knocks when you turn taps and toilets on and off? I wonder if your water pressure is a bit high, so you might benefit from having a Pressure-Reducing-Valve fitted after your mains stopcock? (But only if you are noticeably above 3 bar).

On a connected issue - isn't the water level in that tank a bit high (if your CH is cold)? I don;t know if it is, but I'd always set mine lower than that to provide plenty of elbow room; as your system heats up, expanded water is fed into that tank via its lowest pipe, and the level will rise to a max level. You don't want that 'highest' level to be too close to that overflow, I don't think.

Another solution could be to fit a 'Torbeck' type valve, but I don;t know if these are allowed in these tanks? If they are, these operate in a completely different way, and shut off 'instantly', so leaving out the partially-closed resonating part.

Is it better to have a P2 valve as opposed to the one he's fitted? Will it be quieter when it fills the tank?