2nd COL Payment Refused Due to Going From Joint To Single Claim

poppy12345

ladyandthetramp said:

Can’t quote on phone very well but colcotti said claimants would be financially penalised - this is what happened and seems really unfair, i had the waiting period with no money coming in and had to ask for an advance, which now I have to pay back each month. 

What was the date of the assessment period when you were claiming with your partner? This question was asked but you didn't answer. If you don't know the dates of this, what date did you usually receive your payment each month?

calcotti

xxxxxxxx said:

calcotti said: if the above does not happen a claimant would be financially penalised (even without the CoL issue).

Can you explain your thoughts please? 

Easier to explain by example.

A and B have a joint claim with an assessment period from 15th of the month to 14th of the month with payment due on 21st of the month.

If A and B separate on 10th of November they are no longer a couple on the last day of the AP (14th). What should happen, as I understand it, is that both should still have an AP that runs from 15th to 14th and therefore they should both receive a payment as single claimants on 21st November for the AP 15th October to 14th November.

In OP's case partner A has received a payment as above but partner B has been obliged to make a new claim. Even if they make the claim on the day of separation on 10th November their new AP is now 10th to 9th of the month. They have therefore missed out UC for the period of 15th October to 9th November. Having said that they could possibly get the start date backdated on the grounds they could not have known thy needed to apply earlier - however it seems clear to me that making a new claim should not be required.

UC Regulations regulation 21

(3) Where a new award is made to a single person without a claim by virtue of regulation 9(6)(a) or (10) of the Claims and Payments Regulations (old award has ended when the claimant ceased to be a member of a couple) each assessment period for the new award begins on the same day of each month as the assessment period for the old award.

The Universal Credit, Personal Independence Payment, Jobseeker's Allowance and Employment and Support Allowance (Claims and Payments) Regulations 2013

Regulation 9 (6)(a)

(6) Where an award of universal credit to joint claimants is terminated because they cease to be a couple an award may be made, without a claim, to either or each one of them—
(a) as a single person; or
(b) if either of them has formed a new couple with a person who is already entitled to universal credit, jointly with that person.

Seems clear that OP's claim has been administered incorrectly.

I think I would try a complaint to DWP about the insistence to start a new claim which is contrary to the law and asking them to either 

i) revise their UC claim so that the claim date is revised to start on the date of the start date of the AP of the joint claim in which the separation occurred and recalculate their entitlement to UC for this period. Such a revision would change the AP dates such taht there would be entitlement to CoL (assuming that there weren't earnings that would have made the UC nil). or

ii) ask for compensation for the consequential financial loss suffered by their error such loss to include the UC you missed out on in the manner I outlined above and the loss of the CoL because of the change in AP dates.

xxxxxxxx

ladyandthetramp said:

Can’t quote on phone very well but colcotti said claimants would be financially penalised - this is what happened and seems really unfair, i had the waiting period with no money coming in and had to ask for an advance, which now I have to pay back each month. 

I don't recognise a free loan and pay back period to be a financial loss, Because they will eventually pay you the full amount of backdated benefit.  All you have to do is set aside the amount you borrowed from your arrears and pay it to yourself each month at the same rate it is being deducted from your UC payments.    

If you could answer the questions in my post above posted at 12:05PM please.

calcotti

xxxxxxxx said:

I don't recognise a free loan and pay back period to be a financial loss, Because they will eventually pay you the full amount of backdated benefit. 

The financial loss is not the loan it is that OP missed out on the CoL because of the change in their AP dates (and for the reason outlined in my earlier reply to your question on the matter).

xxxxxxxx

calcotti said:

xxxxxxxx said:

I don't recognise a free loan and pay back period to be a financial loss, Because they will eventually pay you the full amount of backdated benefit. 

The financial loss is not the loan it is that OP missed out on the CoL because of the change in their AP dates (and for the reason outlined in my earlier reply to your question on the matter).

My point was she was replying to your statement that "even without the losing the CoL there would be a financial loss" 
I am well aware the OP has lost the CoL.  She stated the fact that she had to get a loan and is now paying it back as the example of a financial loss.  I am pointing it out that this part of it is not a financial loss.  

Which is why I said 
"I don't recognise a free loan and pay back period to be a financial loss"  I made no reference to the lost CoL because that is obviously a financial loss.

xxxxxxxx

calcotti said:

xxxxxxxx said:

calcotti said: if the above does not happen a claimant would be financially penalised (even without the CoL issue).

Can you explain your thoughts please? 

Easier to explain by example.

A and B have a joint claim with an assessment period from 15th of the month to 14th of the month with payment due on 21st of the month.

If A and B separate on 10th of November they are no longer a couple on the last day of the AP (14th). What should happen, as I understand it, is that both should still have an AP that runs from 15th to 14th and therefore they should both receive a payment as single claimants on 21st November for the AP 15th October to 14th November.

In OP's case partner A has received a payment as above but partner B has been obliged to make a new claim. Even if they make the claim on the day of separation on 10th November their new AP is now 10th to 9th of the month. They have therefore missed out UC for the period of 15th October to 9th November. Having said that they could possibly get the start date backdated on the grounds they could not have known thy needed to apply earlier - however it seems clear to me that making a new claim should not be required.

UC Regulations regulation 21

(3) Where a new award is made to a single person without a claim by virtue of regulation 9(6)(a) or (10) of the Claims and Payments Regulations (old award has ended when the claimant ceased to be a member of a couple) each assessment period for the new award begins on the same day of each month as the assessment period for the old award.

The Universal Credit, Personal Independence Payment, Jobseeker's Allowance and Employment and Support Allowance (Claims and Payments) Regulations 2013

Regulation 9 (6)(a)

(6) Where an award of universal credit to joint claimants is terminated because they cease to be a couple an award may be made, without a claim, to either or each one of them—
(a) as a single person; or
(b) if either of them has formed a new couple with a person who is already entitled to universal credit, jointly with that person.

Seems clear that OP's claim has been administered incorrectly.

I think I would try a complaint to DWP about the insistence to start a new claim which is contrary to the law and asking them to either 

i) revise their UC claim so that the claim date is revised to start on the date of the start date of the AP of the joint claim in which the separation occurred and recalculate their entitlement to UC for this period. Such a revision would change the AP dates such taht there would be entitlement to CoL (assuming that there weren't earnings that would have made the UC nil). or

ii) ask for compensation for the consequential financial loss suffered by their error such loss to include the UC you missed out on in the manner I outlined above and the loss of the CoL because of the change in AP dates.

The problem with all of this is that the OP has not said they had to make a new claim.  They said "it felt like a new claim" because they had to wait 5 weeks.  

And we do not know what the OP's  (old and new) AP dates were and we don't know, if the OP's AP dates changed, was the first payment for more than 1 month to fully account for that?   

I agree, it appears the claim was administered incorrectly but even if it was, I believe the first payment will have been backdated to the date the joint claim ended therefore there can be no financial loss other than the lost CoL.

xxxxxxxx

tomtom256 said:

Your wrong, as it can be challenged via your UC journal and the Service Centre will check and issue a response/arrange a payment if found to be eligible.

That is not my experience.  I have seen journal requests for this being denied with the advice  "You will have to raise this on gov.uk"   

I have asked myself and been told the payments are not paid by UC and any questions about them are not dealt with by UC.  Except of course if the underlying cause for no CoL is a UC processing error then a claimant has to complain and ask for the UC error to be fixed and UC arrears issued so they can then ask on Gov.uk for the missing CoL to be paid. 

calcotti

xxxxxxxx said:

calcotti said:

xxxxxxxx said:

I don't recognise a free loan and pay back period to be a financial loss, Because they will eventually pay you the full amount of backdated benefit. 

The financial loss is not the loan it is that OP missed out on the CoL because of the change in their AP dates (and for the reason outlined in my earlier reply to your question on the matter).

My point was she was replying to your statement that "even without the losing the CoL there would be a financial loss" 
I am well aware the OP has lost the CoL.  She stated the fact that she had to get a loan and is now paying it back as the example of a financial loss.  I am pointing it out that this part of it is not a financial loss.  

Which is why I said 
"I don't recognise a free loan and pay back period to be a financial loss"  I made no reference to the lost CoL because that is obviously a financial loss.

I didn’t read the OP as saying they thought the advance is a loss.

xxxxxxxx

OK, so we are all (hopefully including the OP) agreed, the advance is not a financial loss.  

This is a common misunderstanding, I hear so often on the radio, "I had to take an advance and now I have to pay it back"  or politicians saying the same thing about claimants, as though it is the crime of the century.  

DWP should just pay back the advance out of the arrears, before paying the arrears.

calcotti

xxxxxxxx said:

OK, so we are all (hopefully including the OP) agreed, the advance is not a financial loss.  

This is a common misunderstanding, I hear so often on the radio, "I had to take an advance and now I have to pay it back"  or politicians saying the same thing about claimants, as though it is the crime of the century.  

DWP should just pay back the advance out of the arrears, before paying the arrears.

Pay back out of what arrears? The argument against the advance as loan is that the amount of money a claimant receives each month is supposed to reflect the amount they need each month to maintain an adequate standard of living. Paying back the advance each month means that their monthly come is then below that amount deemed as adequate. 

I think the designers of UC assumed that everybody coming onto UC would be coming off a monthly wage which would keep them going during the wait for the initial payment. That simply isn’t the case.

OP, apologies that your thread is being diverted onto various discussion points. If you need further guidance it would be helpful too know the exact sequence of events with dates.