Britannia Whitgift Croydon - POPLA Stage

SLang1214

Hi. The registered keeper received a PCN from Britannia Parking (attached). Date of alleged contravention is xx Aug 2022. Date of notice is xx Sep 22. NTK was delivered in the post on xx Sep 22, 6 working days after posting which is 18 days after the contravention. Obviously for keeper liability the NTK must arrive by day 14 with no windscreen ticket. According to paragraph 9 (6), a notice is presumed to have been delivered on the 2nd working day after posting. However, in this case it arrived 6 working days after posting, which takes it past the 14 days for keeper liability. If it is presumed to be delivered within 2 working days, that would be within the 14 days.

Location: CR9 1SB (I can't post link to the street view). Street view inside the parking is old, but there is street view outside the car park from both Aug 22 & Oct 22.

Ultimately, long story short, the driver did not realise/know it was a camera controlled car park because of poor signage. The driver did not pay for the period of stay as they thought it was a warden controlled pay & display car park, and were only stopping off to break a long journey and passengers needed to use the toilets. Ended up staying for 55 min. I know not ideal, but here we are. Had the driver known it was camera controlled, obviously the driver would not have just driven off.

In any case, following is the text used to appeal as the Registered Keeper:

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving, and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require an explanation of the allegation and your evidence. You must include close-up actual photographs of the signs you contend were at the location on the material date as well as your images of the vehicle.

If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner.

Notwithstanding the above, the PCN failed to comply with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. In order to comply with paragraph 9 (4) & (5) of the POFA, the Notice to Keeper needed to be delivered within 14 days of the alleged parking contravention, which in this case is xx September 2022. However, the Notice to Keeper was delivered to the keeper at the above given address on xx September 2022, which is 18 days after the alleged parking contravention. I have a witness testimony from my landlord who can confirm that the letter was received on xx September 2022. Hence, you have forfeited any right to claim unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.

Please provide written confirmation that Britannia Parking does not hold the keeper liable for this parking charge. If you choose to pursue me please be aware that I will not enter into any correspondence and this will be the only letter you will receive from me until you answer the specific points raised in this letter.

Received a reply from Britannia, along with list of VRNs. Attached images below.

Next step is the POPLA appeal. Hoping to appeal on poor signange and other technicalties, main one being the saga with Britannia having different companies and numbers. I found that on the other Britannia forum posts. Then there is the argument about no keeper liability since NTK arrived 18 days after alleged contravention. If delivery is presumed to be within 2 days of date of notice, then it stays within the 14 days. Unsure if this has any legs and can be proved...

Unfortunately, will be unable to visit the site to take photos. It is in a different city. Street view shows the entrance sign, and I hope you'll agree it is in a terrible location. Far away from the actual entrance to the car park and the driver is expected to catch that sign from across a bus lane when entering. The appeal reply from Britannia has some signs (dated between Dec 2020 to Jun 2021), but no mention about location in the car park. There must have a poor placement or lack of sufficient signs; the driver did do a quick sweep on the day to avoid this exact situation.

Any help on what my main POPLA appeal points should be will be much appreciated (and any latest posts where I could potentially grab them from). Ultimately, I am aware the driver's actions were probably not right, but here we are. Need to submit my POPLA by 15th Nov (did leave it a bit last minute; I was away with work a lot in the last few weeks).

Thank you

Coupon-mad

I think and predict this won't win at POPLA.

Not unless the alleged date of the notice is a Thursday or Friday, which would mean it is not deemed delivered until the following Tues/Weds (out of time for POFA).  Or if the envelope shows it was posted second class but almost none show that date.

As you know and accept in your first post above, motorists can't drive into any private car park that requires a tariff, and decide the rules don't apply and not pay and display 'because I won't be here long'.  These car parks are all ANPR these days and sitting in the car is still parked even if it had been a manned car park.

It surprises me from your description & photos that the driver didn't pay - but we are where we are.

However, it sounds like your POPLA Code is already 3 weeks old (you realise the POPLA Code lasts 33 days, not just 28?).  You have longer than you might think. But I can't see a winning point.

SLang1214

Coupon-mad said:

I think and predict this won't win at POPLA.

Not unless the alleged date of the notice is a Thursday or Friday, which would mean it is not deemed delivered until the following Tues/Weds (out of time for POFA).  Or if the envelope shows it was posted second class but almost none show that date.

As you know and accept in your first post above, motorists can't drive into any private car park that requires a tariff, and decide the rules don't apply and not pay and display 'because I won't be here long'.  These car parks are all ANPR these days and sitting in the car is still parked even if it had been a manned car park.

It surprises me from your description & photos that the driver didn't pay - but we are where we are.

However, it sounds like your POPLA Code is already 3 weeks old (you realise the POPLA Code lasts 33 days, not just 28?).  You have longer than you might think. But I can't see a winning point.

Thanks for the reply. 

Date of notice was Tuesday. The notice got delivered to the address next Wednesday (6 working days after posting). I need to check what the envelope says. Dont think it said anything. 

I should still appeal right? I suppose my main points should be signage (I think the signage was poor) and Britannia company technicality? Any help with this will be much appreciated. 

So I have appeal to POPLA more than 28 days later? That will help so much if it's the case and I'm travelling for work again tomorrow. 

Coupon-mad

By day 33, like I said.

 I suppose my main points should be signage (I think the signage was poor) and Britannia company technicality? 

Does your case include that technicality? Different company number on the bottom of the signs than appears on the bottom of your NTK?

If not I would lie low, personally.  I don't see a POPLA win.  If there is no discount on the table any more, then just ignore them next year and beyond, unless they try a small claim. 

There is an entrance sign there, and it is never an excuse to say the driver "didn't know it was an ANPR car park".  The answer to that from POPLA would be "so what? You still pay and display, not sit there taking a chance on not being 'seen' then driving out almost an hour later".

I don't understand why the driver did this even if they didn't know it was ANPR (which to be fair they should have presumed it was - they all are these days).  The driver should have paid the fee for an hour before leaving.

Unwinnable at POPLA IMHO.  Sorry to say that.

SLang1214

Coupon-mad said:

By day 33, like I said.

 I suppose my main points should be signage (I think the signage was poor) and Britannia company technicality? 

Does your case include that technicality? Different company number on the bottom of the signs than appears on the bottom of your NTK?

If not I would lie low, personally.  I don't see a POPLA win.  If there is no discount on the table any more, then just ignore them next year and beyond, unless they try a small claim. 

There is an entrance sign there, and it is never an excuse to say the driver "didn't know it was an ANPR car park".  The answer to that from POPLA would be "so what? You still pay and display, not sit there taking a chance on not being 'seen' then driving out almost an hour later".

I don't understand why the driver did this even if they didn't know it was ANPR (which to be fair they should have presumed it was - they all are these days).  The driver should have paid the fee for an hour before leaving.

Unwinnable at POPLA IMHO.  Sorry to say that.

I'm not sure what company name is on the signs and which company has the contract with the land owner. I'm hoping it's different to what's on the NTK. Is this not something I can ask POPLA to check with the standard appeal template?

Would you say the entrance sign is not in a great place? The driver and occupants just completely missed it.

Is there any harm in appealing for POPLA anyway?

Coupon-mad

No real harm in trying POPLA.   You will lose though, I expect, and I wouldn't, personally.  I think that sign is clear enough and regardless, why would the driver not pay the fee, is what POPLA will think.  It is clearly a fee paying car park, not a free one.  No-one drives into that particular car park and thinks it is free.

Umkomaas

Is this not something I can ask POPLA to check with the standard appeal template?

POPLA don't check anything beyond the evidence presented by the motorist and the parking firm. 

fisherjim

As Umko says if the PPC presents any photographs and you present none they will accept the PPC's evidence as presented.

SLang1214

Thanks for the replies.

Coupon-mad said:

Not unless the alleged date of the notice is a Thursday or Friday, which would mean it is not deemed delivered until the following Tues/Weds (out of time for POFA).  Or if the envelope shows it was posted second class but almost none show that date.

Just checked the original envelope. It only says Royal Mail C9 10002 along with orange and black vertical lines, which is apparently a barcode of some sort with Royal mail and stores info like address, processing date etc. Looking up online, C9 means that it was sent by another postal carrier, with Royal Mail only doing the end delivery. See images below of the C9 marking on the envelope, along with a Royal Mail tweet confirming this.

The letter I recieved with a reply to my appeal was actually delivered by Royal Mail first class. The envelope has a date and price on it. I did recieve this the next day after sent. It's the NTK that took about 8 days.

Is this worth pursuing? They could have posted the NTK via royal mail to ensure delivery within the necessary period but chose to use another carrier which ended up delaying the delivery of the post and me recieving the NTK 18 days after the alleged contravention date (rather than 14). Or am I clucthing at straws again...?

It's a bummer that I can't go down to the location to check out what business number is on the signs. It's a 4 hr round trip minimum. That could have been a potential win on technicality.

fisherjim said:

As Umko says if the PPC presents any photographs and you present none they will accept the PPC's evidence as presented.

With regards to evidence, the only photo I can provide is from street view showing the positioning of the entrance sign and it's distance from the actual entrance along with a bus lane. The driver can't even be driving in the nearside lane and will be turning from the middle lane (below are from Aug 22 and Oct 22).

Coupon-mad

Have you asked Royal Mail if Access Mail is tracked and if it is, how can you tell when it was actually put into the UK Mail system.

Could Tweet Whistl to ask them how to track it.