HSBC Premier Credit card started charging Cash Advance Fee for paying Freetrade subs

DullGreyGuy

Ulrich said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Ulrich said:
Yes, they said something had been fixed recently when I phoned the Customer Service. The issue is they not only won't disclose which ones but didn't communicate it to the customers at all, which led to the latter being charged for the Bank's mistakes.

Wrong way round... you werent charged previously because of the banks mistakes. They havent retrospectively gone back and charged you but just applied it on a go forward basis. This is inline with the T&Cs you agreed to and so you've benefited from their mistake not been made worse off. 

Well, they made a change to they way they treat payments and according to the T&Cs they should inform me about it. They didn't, which resulted in some fees and interest they charged me.
That's what I think is wrong from a customer point of view.

They need to tell you about changes to the T&Cs, these havent changed.

Its not clear which clause you think is triggered by fixing an IT issue that was in the customer's favour?

Ulrich said:
I included a link to the current HSBC Credit Card T&Cs in my original post. I read the document through and honestly, as a normal person I'm unable to link that Cash related payment term with monthly subscription fees Freetrade charges me. Could you point out where it says that? I suspect that banks are not interested in making things like that clear because that's the way they make money.

On top of that, I mentioned in my original post that when I subscribed to a Freetrade plan, there was no message advising to use debit cards as some credit card providers may charge extra fees. Now Freetrade displays such a message.
I combine it with the fact that RECENTLY HSBC changed/fixed something in the way they treat some payments and it leads me to a conclusion that something industry-wide or bigger has changed or was introduced (new legislation, tax rules or something like that), which resulted in actions HSBC and Freetrade both undertook in that direction.
They both fixed something so there are probably no questions to them from the Government or any regulatory body it that regard.
On the flipside, as they did not communicate the change to their clients, the latter have been made worse off as they had to pay fees and charges they did'n previously pay under the same T&Cs.

I personally believe that as the Bank knew about the changes and didn't inform me about them, it's reasonable to refund me but let's see how they feel about it.

The charges are presumably small and so they will undoubtably refund them as its not worth the cost of going to the ombudsman to defend it. 

As mentioned, you have at least 4 parties involved who broadly independently make decisions. Freetrade dont get to decide their MCC, their acquiring bank does, HSBC simply respond to the MCC. The ISO Technical Committee manage the list of MCC codes and their meaning.  There is a finite number of them and so it can be square peg, round hole type issue (as per the FX shop selling travel wallets) but you can see all the codes at https://github.com/greggles/mcc-codes/blob/main/mcc_codes.csv 

In the US merchants can choose to include vastly greater detail on the transaction in exchange for lower fees. This in theory allows for much more accurate application of T&Cs however also means your bank can get to know that your £100 weekly Walmart shop is 75% spent on beer and could in theory use that for marketing purposes, decision making and/or potentially selling on to data brokers

Ulrich

Deleted_User said:

I think it's all about communication. According T&Cs the Bank should inform their customers about changes that affect them.

Customers haven't changed anything it the way they use the Bank's services but the Bank made a change that affects these services and failed to communicate it, which resulted in customers being charged extra.

No they didn't, please re-read the terms and bank explanation - their terms always allowed them to charge you for this. What happened is that due to their mistake they didn't charge you for something they were allowed to charge for. They didn't change the terms, they started correctly applying them. You saved money by not having these charges, it didn't cost you anything.

Ok, let's talk about their T&Cs. I provided the link in my original post. I read them and as a normal person I have to admit that I can see no link between Freetrade subscription fee and Cash related payments. Can you point out where it says so? On top of that, Freetrade from their side never said their fee is a cash related payment. If we combine it with the fact that until recently HSBC didn't charge me extra for such payments, I felt totally safe by using my credit card. Now both Freetrade and HSBC fixed their mistake (i.e actually made a change) but didn't notify me and it cost me money. The fact that HSBC was always allowed to charge me but didn't do that because of whatever it was is irrelevant as it's their internal business and if they made a mistake, it's their fault, not mine. So Freetrade and HSBC are jointly responsible for the situation but it's HSBC that charges me extra fees so I believe they have to waive them because they didn't communicate the changes and how it could affect me.

born_again

>I included a link to the current HSBC Credit Card T&Cs in my original post. I read the document through and honestly, as a normal person I'm unable to link that Cash related payment term with monthly subscription fees Freetrade charges me. Could you point out where it says that? I suspect that banks are not interested in making things like that clear because that's the way they make money.<

As they are a financial services provider. Cash fee's can be expected. As to the subscription charge. Maybe they have been pulled up by their merchant bank for using a incorrect MCC on this charge. Hence why you now see use a debit card for these.
If that is the case, then HSBC have done nothing wrong.

In reality using a credit facility to purchase financial products, is fraught with issues, aside from any extra charges. Due to investments going up & down.

[Deleted User]

Ulrich said:

Deleted_User said:

I think it's all about communication. According T&Cs the Bank should inform their customers about changes that affect them.

Customers haven't changed anything it the way they use the Bank's services but the Bank made a change that affects these services and failed to communicate it, which resulted in customers being charged extra.

No they didn't, please re-read the terms and bank explanation - their terms always allowed them to charge you for this. What happened is that due to their mistake they didn't charge you for something they were allowed to charge for. They didn't change the terms, they started correctly applying them. You saved money by not having these charges, it didn't cost you anything.

Ok, let's talk about their T&Cs. I provided the link in my original post. I read them and as a normal person I have to admit that I can see no link between Freetrade subscription fee and Cash related payments. Can you point out where it says so? On top of that, Freetrade from their side never said their fee is a cash related payment. If we combine it with the fact that until recently HSBC didn't charge me extra for such payments, I felt totally safe by using my credit card. Now both Freetrade and HSBC fixed their mistake (i.e actually made a change) but didn't notify me and it cost me money. The fact that HSBC was always allowed to charge me but didn't do that because of whatever it was is irrelevant as it's their internal business and if they made a mistake, it's their fault, not mine. So Freetrade and HSBC are jointly responsible for the situation but it's HSBC that charges me extra fees so I believe they have to waive them because they didn't communicate the changes and how it could affect me.

You wouldn't expect them to specifically mention things like that but rather that they have the right to charge for cash transactions.

They fixed a mistake, they didn't make a change. Yes it was their fault, hence why they are not chasing you for the fees you should have paid but didn't. Sure, ask HSBC to waive the fees, just make sure you offer to pay them for all the times you effectively waived the fees you should have paid, everyone is fairly treated.

DullGreyGuy

Freetrade will not know who is and isnt going to charge you... they dont decide that. Its helpful for them to warn you that you may be charged if an increasing proportion of banks are but there is no legal requirement for them to do so. The cause of the increase may because card issuers are changing their views or the acquiring bank has reclassified the business.

Trading, such as online share dealing, is typically seen as a cash like transaction. Their fee is for trading just they charge it as a monthly single fee rather a per trade fee.  Stocks, bonds etc call into the category of cash like items in the same way as FX, money orders and gambling

As already said, you will probably get it back this time without too much of a fight on this occasion 

Ulrich

born_again said:

>I included a link to the current HSBC Credit Card T&Cs in my original post. I read the document through and honestly, as a normal person I'm unable to link that Cash related payment term with monthly subscription fees Freetrade charges me. Could you point out where it says that? I suspect that banks are not interested in making things like that clear because that's the way they make money.<

As they are a financial services provider. Cash fee's can be expected. As to the subscription charge. Maybe they have been pulled up by their merchant bank for using a incorrect MCC on this charge. Hence why you now see use a debit card for these.
If that is the case, then HSBC have done nothing wrong.

HSBC fixed something in the way they categorise payments and they don't deny that.

In reality using a credit facility to purchase financial products, is fraught with issues, aside from any extra charges. Due to investments going up & down.

Huh? I used my credit card to pay monthly subscription fee, what is the issue?

born_again

So if they fixed it, they could then charge for the missed ones. Although that would incur the wrath of FOS. 

Ah, so only subscription fee only 👍

In that case then shift to a debit card & see where your complaint goes with HSBC. Guessing that charges will not be that much for 2/3 months. So bet they end up refunding. As cost of going to FOS will far exceed the value of your refund.

I have seen many people actually use CC to invest money. Then lose it. Someone even tried a S75 claim as the value fell & they ended up with a large debt on the CC. Suffice to say this is not covered under S75

Ulrich

Deleted_User said:

Ulrich said:

Deleted_User said:

I think it's all about communication. According T&Cs the Bank should inform their customers about changes that affect them.

Customers haven't changed anything it the way they use the Bank's services but the Bank made a change that affects these services and failed to communicate it, which resulted in customers being charged extra.

No they didn't, please re-read the terms and bank explanation - their terms always allowed them to charge you for this. What happened is that due to their mistake they didn't charge you for something they were allowed to charge for. They didn't change the terms, they started correctly applying them. You saved money by not having these charges, it didn't cost you anything.

Ok, let's talk about their T&Cs. I provided the link in my original post. I read them and as a normal person I have to admit that I can see no link between Freetrade subscription fee and Cash related payments. Can you point out where it says so? On top of that, Freetrade from their side never said their fee is a cash related payment. If we combine it with the fact that until recently HSBC didn't charge me extra for such payments, I felt totally safe by using my credit card. Now both Freetrade and HSBC fixed their mistake (i.e actually made a change) but didn't notify me and it cost me money. The fact that HSBC was always allowed to charge me but didn't do that because of whatever it was is irrelevant as it's their internal business and if they made a mistake, it's their fault, not mine. So Freetrade and HSBC are jointly responsible for the situation but it's HSBC that charges me extra fees so I believe they have to waive them because they didn't communicate the changes and how it could affect me.

You wouldn't expect them to specifically mention things like that but rather that they have the right to charge for cash transactions.

They fixed a mistake, they didn't make a change. Yes it was their fault, hence why they are not chasing you for the fees you should have paid but didn't. Sure, ask HSBC to waive the fees, just make sure you offer to pay them for all the times you effectively waived the fees you should have paid, everyone is fairly treated.

I earlier pointed out that their definition of Cash related transactions is vague and I couldn't find the link between the term and Freetrade subscription fees - could you point out where it says so in their T&Cs?

By fixing their mistake they changed what falls into that Cash related payment category. Tomorrow they change it so my PayPal payment will be treated like that or something. Can't you see that not right because I'm a client and I should know what's going on not by noticing a new fee on my bank statement.

DullGreyGuy

Ulrich said:

Deleted_User said:

Ulrich said:

Deleted_User said:

I think it's all about communication. According T&Cs the Bank should inform their customers about changes that affect them.

Customers haven't changed anything it the way they use the Bank's services but the Bank made a change that affects these services and failed to communicate it, which resulted in customers being charged extra.

No they didn't, please re-read the terms and bank explanation - their terms always allowed them to charge you for this. What happened is that due to their mistake they didn't charge you for something they were allowed to charge for. They didn't change the terms, they started correctly applying them. You saved money by not having these charges, it didn't cost you anything.

Ok, let's talk about their T&Cs. I provided the link in my original post. I read them and as a normal person I have to admit that I can see no link between Freetrade subscription fee and Cash related payments. Can you point out where it says so? On top of that, Freetrade from their side never said their fee is a cash related payment. If we combine it with the fact that until recently HSBC didn't charge me extra for such payments, I felt totally safe by using my credit card. Now both Freetrade and HSBC fixed their mistake (i.e actually made a change) but didn't notify me and it cost me money. The fact that HSBC was always allowed to charge me but didn't do that because of whatever it was is irrelevant as it's their internal business and if they made a mistake, it's their fault, not mine. So Freetrade and HSBC are jointly responsible for the situation but it's HSBC that charges me extra fees so I believe they have to waive them because they didn't communicate the changes and how it could affect me.

You wouldn't expect them to specifically mention things like that but rather that they have the right to charge for cash transactions.

They fixed a mistake, they didn't make a change. Yes it was their fault, hence why they are not chasing you for the fees you should have paid but didn't. Sure, ask HSBC to waive the fees, just make sure you offer to pay them for all the times you effectively waived the fees you should have paid, everyone is fairly treated.

I earlier pointed out that their definition of Cash related transactions is vague and I couldn't find the link between the term and Freetrade subscription fees - could you point out where it says so in their T&Cs?

By fixing their mistake they changed what falls into that Cash related payment category. Tomorrow they change it so my PayPal payment will be treated like that or something. Can't you see that not right because I'm a client and I should know what's going on not by noticing a new fee on my bank statement.

It a fee in relation to the purchase/sale of stocks and shares etc, they just happen to have decided to charge it at a fix monthly rate rather than on a per trade basis. 

Payments in relation to the purchase and sale of stocks and shares are considered cash like as stocks/shares are cash like

Ulrich

DullGreyGuy said:

Freetrade will not know who is and isnt going to charge you... they dont decide that. Its helpful for them to warn you that you may be charged if an increasing proportion of banks are but there is no legal requirement for them to do so. The cause of the increase may because card issuers are changing their views or the acquiring bank has reclassified the business.

Trading, such as online share dealing, is typically seen as a cash like transaction. Their fee is for trading just they charge it as a monthly single fee rather a per trade fee. 

Thanks for the clear explanation. Looks like if I want to pay a company using my credit card and they don't warn me about potential extra charges from my service provider, I have to contact them to find out if that payment would be treated as a Cash related payment? And then hope my bank has the same view on it? And even if the payment goes through without any extra fees incurred, there is no guarantee they won't crop up in 6 months/a year time. Scary, isn't it?

And to clarify, Freetrade only charges FX fees and they come from my trading account with them. On the other hand, the subscription fees (that I pay from my credit card) allow me to hold an ISA account with them, get access to US equity market and ability to use some order types - they have nohing to do with actual trades, in fact I only buy/sell stocks once in several months but they take the subs monthly.
They have a free plan meaning you can buy/sell instruments without paying any monthly fee. I know it's a subtle difference and many banks would still consider them all related to purchase/sale of stocks and shares - don't know if it's right or wrong.