Initial Parking PCN - York Street Manchester

Fruitcake

msa123 said:

Fruitcake said:

Was there a delay between entering the car park and the vehicle being parked, for example by having to drive round looking for a space before one became available?
Was there a delay between the vehicle leaving the parking space and exiting the car park, for example due to queueing traffic?

This is why the UK Government has prohibited the use of ANPR scameras in council and local authority car parks because it only records time on site, not time parked.

No delay in finding a space. But we parked up. Took the kids out and had to attach the car seat to the push chair then went to the pay machine to get the ticket. 

Not really a delay on exit either. It’s a very small car park and was no traffic at that time. 

It would have been unsafe to walk around the car park with young children, even just to go to a pay machine, so moving the child safety seat from the car to the pushchair was essential for the safety of the child and other motorists.

According to the judge in the Jopson vs Homeguard appeal, case number B9GF0A9E, attending to a vicissitude of some short duration is not parking. Moving a child seat for safety reasons would constitute a vicissitude of some short duration.
Add in that the judge in the case of Thornton vs Shoe Lane found that the contract (parking period) does not begin until the motorists has agreed to the parking terms by inserting their money and pressing the green button.

You don't need to expand on them, just refer to them and state that the law trumps the BPA's lack of grace periods for non-parking events.

With regards to your points about the DHLUC, add that the BPA told its members earlier this year that they should implement the new government changes as a matter of urgency and not wait for it to become law.

As far as I know, Initial Parking have yet to initiate court proceedings, but the more kitchen sinks you throw at PoPLA the better chance you have of winning.

Even if you lose, you won't be paying because a PoPLA decision is not binding on the motorists.

msa123

Fruitcake said:

msa123 said:

Fruitcake said:

Was there a delay between entering the car park and the vehicle being parked, for example by having to drive round looking for a space before one became available?
Was there a delay between the vehicle leaving the parking space and exiting the car park, for example due to queueing traffic?

This is why the UK Government has prohibited the use of ANPR scameras in council and local authority car parks because it only records time on site, not time parked.

No delay in finding a space. But we parked up. Took the kids out and had to attach the car seat to the push chair then went to the pay machine to get the ticket. 

Not really a delay on exit either. It’s a very small car park and was no traffic at that time. 

It would have been unsafe to walk around the car park with young children, even just to go to a pay machine, so moving the child safety seat from the car to the pushchair was essential for the safety of the child and other motorists.

According to the judge in the Jopson vs Homeguard appeal, case number B9GF0A9E, attending to a vicissitude of some short duration is not parking. Moving a child seat for safety reasons would constitute a vicissitude of some short duration.
Add in that the judge in the case of Thornton vs Shoe Lane found that the contract (parking period) does not begin until the motorists has agreed to the parking terms by inserting their money and pressing the green button.

You don't need to expand on them, just refer to them and state that the law trumps the BPA's lack of grace periods for non-parking events.

With regards to your points about the DHLUC, add that the BPA told its members earlier this year that they should implement the new government changes as a matter of urgency and not wait for it to become law.

As far as I know, Initial Parking have yet to initiate court proceedings, but the more kitchen sinks you throw at PoPLA the better chance you have of winning.

Even if you lose, you won't be paying because a PoPLA decision is not binding on the motorists.

Thanks, much appreciated. Will submit to POPLA and update when i hear back.

Coupon-mad

Spotted a typo:

Should be 'principle' not 'principal' in this context.

msa123

Hi All 

After submitting the POPLA appeal couple of weeks ago, Initial Parking have now submitted their evidence pack and I have 7 days to respond. 

The pack shows the vehicle arriving and leaving the car park with the time stamps on the photos, it then has 19 pages each showing one photo of different signs around the car park. There is a copy of the contract with the landowner, and then just copies of the PCN issued, my initial appeal and their rejection email. The final 3 pages have reports from their systems showing ticket details. 

The final page has this wording

As stated on our, very large, BPA approved signs, additional time can be purchased at any point prior to your vehicle exiting the car park. The motorist paid for 2 hours parking time but stayed an additional 14 minutes and 47 seconds without payment. Therefore, the charge remains valid and payment is due. We attach our Parking Enforcement documentation signed by both the landowner andourselves. All signs on site are very large, BPA compliant and advise the motorist that if theydo not wish to remain on site they must leave within 10 minutes of entry. We follow the BPApractice allowing the appropriate grace period on site.

What should I be focusing on in my comments regarding their evidence, I have used the template wording for the signage section, can this be re used here? 

Is there a way to attach copy of the evidence pack?

msa123

This is a copy of the contract, is there anything there which I can argue on? 

msa123

I have drafted the below, most of the Grace periods section has been taken from the initial appeal. Can it be repeated here or not?

Rebuttal of evidence

Grace Periods

Initial Parking state they operate a grace period compliant with the BPA code of conduct. The evidence shows the driver entered the car park at 15:24, purchased the ticket at 15:29 and as address in my appeal, this is reasonable seeing as they had to first find a space to park in, park the car in a tight parking spot, then take out 2 children, a 2 year old child and a 2 month old baby, who they had to settle after an hour long drive, put on coats as it was cold, put the baby in their pushchair and ensure seat belts are fastened and secure before continuing. Then go to the parking machine, read the tariff and purchase the ticket.

It would have been unsafe to walk around the car park with young children, even just to go to a pay machine, so moving the child safety seat from the car to the pushchair was essential for the safety of the child and other motorists.

According to the judge in the Jopson vs Homeguard appeal, case number B9GF0A9E, attending to a vicissitude of some short duration is not parking. Moving a child seat for safety reasons would constitute a vicissitude of some short duration.
Also the judge in the case of Thornton vs Shoe Lane found that the contract (parking period) does not begin until the motorists has agreed to the parking terms by inserting their money and pressing the green button.

As such in this case the law trumps the BPA's lack of grace periods for non-parking events.

The evidence shows the driver leaving the car park at 17:39, again reasonable and within the 10 minute grace period at the end of a parking event as outlined in BPA CoP 13.3 above.

As above, moving a child seat for safety reasons would constitute a vicissitude of some short duration and not be considered as parking.

Ensuring the child is comfortable, safe and ready for a 2 hour drive home back to Leicester, takes time and can easily amount to taking up a few extra minutes. The driver then sets off and must navigate a tight parking space, the exit time only shows when the car left the car park and not the time when the parking ended.

It is very clear from the evidence that Initial Parking have failed to uphold the minimum grace periods set out in the BPA Code of Practice, as the total time in the car park exceeded the paid period by only 14 minutes and 47 seconds. Approximately 5 mins before purchasing a ticket and just under 10 minutes after the paid parking period ended. Both reasonable and within the guidelines set out above and what is considered best practice.

Signage

Initial Parking have provided a map of their signs, as well as photos of the signage around the car park. However, as stated in my appeal, there is nothing on the signs that inform the driver that the timing could possibly start at the point of entry. The driver had no idea; nor does the Pay and Display machine give people any information to suggest that the time on the printed ticket is actually wrong and misleading.

KeithP

Keep in mind -
a) you cannot introduce new evidence at this stage and
b) you only have two thousand characters to play with and
c) you only have six days to respond - day one being the date PoPLA wrote to you.

Your response to their evidence needs to be concise and to the point.

Umkomaas

msa123 said:

This is a copy of the contract, is there anything there which I can argue on? 

What is the date of your parking event?

msa123

Umkomaas said:

msa123 said:

This is a copy of the contract, is there anything there which I can argue on? 

What is the date of your parking event?

9th October 2022

Coupon-mad

This bit below is the important part to reiterate, plus add that the signs don't state that the parking time begins on entry, so any reasonable driver would trust the machine ticket which gave them parking time until 17:29, plus the mandatory minimum of ten minutes grace to leave.

Initial Parking state they operate a grace period compliant with the BPA code of conduct. The evidence shows the driver entered the car park at 15:24, purchased the ticket at 15:29 and as address in my appeal, this is reasonable seeing as they had to first find a space to park in, park the car in a tight parking spot, then take out 2 children, a 2 year old child and a 2 month old baby, who they had to settle after an hour long drive, put on coats as it was cold, put the baby in their pushchair and ensure seat belts are fastened and secure before continuing. Then go to the parking machine, read the tariff and purchase the ticket. 
It would have been unsafe to walk around the car park with young children, even just to go to a pay machine, so moving the child safety seat from the car to the pushchair was essential for the safety of the child and other motorists.