Energy Price Guarantee No Longer 2 years just 6 months at current level

EssexHebridean

ariarnia said:

deano2099 said:

ariarnia said:

deano2099 said:

I don't think the fact that people can't find the house that ticks absolutely everything on their list and is within budget is a surprise. Same for everyone, older people included. "Downsizing" doesn't mean moving to a smaller property, it means moving to a cheaper one. As a rule, these won't be as good as your current place. If they were, they wouldn't be cheaper.
It's done to free up equity, to either use to pay for the increased cost of living, or just because you want more money to spend on nice things.

i'm sorry but what? are you suggesting an elderly woman with limited mobility is being fussy wanting a home she can actually move around and use? 

A little bit. Given she lives in a house with stairs at the moment, she's clearly *able* to live in such a property. Obviously I can absolutely see why she would want to move to a bungalow, that would improve her quality of life. And I totally sympathise around how much it sucks not to be able to afford that because of the relative difference in house prices. But when we're literally talking about moving from a 2/3-bed terrace to a 2-bed bungalow it's not really downsizing. It's an upgrade. 

It's not the costs of moving that are getting in the way here. It's that we're writing off properties like the one she currently lives in as unsuitable. Even though she's perfectly happy living in the one she's in at the moment.

i can't believe i'm having to explain this but when i'm rejecting something as having access issues its because i know my mil and i've actually thought about the suitability of the property. not just on a wim. it's amazing you can make the same assessment having never seen her house never met her and knowing nothing about her mobility or needs. 

what might not have occured to you is we could fit a stair lift in her current house. and the ground floor is big enough she can have a bed in the lounge and the bathroom is already downstairs. turning it into a bunglow with space for one of us to stay upstairs overnight when shes ill or if she needs more help when she gets older.

a top floor flat can't have a stair lift fitted (not unless everyone in the property is okay with it and the hall would have to be wide enough it didn't cause access issues) and theres no option for her to live on the ground floor.

or is that still being fussy?

You've made the points I would have done - thank you. I'm out now - the sheer lack of empathy from some posters on this thread is breathtaking. I can only assume that they are fortunate enough to not yet be at the age themselves where they have elderly family members with health issues and diminishing mobility - as you clearly know it certainly opens your eyes to the problems elderly people face (not least that they are so clearly considered as second class citizens without any right to consideration by some in society!) once you are in a position where you have to deal with those problems on behalf of people you love dearly. I would wish them luck when they DO reach that point, but unless outlooks change considerably I suspect it is their nearest and dearest that need the luck! 

ariarnia

EssexHebridean said:

ariarnia said:

deano2099 said:

ariarnia said:

deano2099 said:

I don't think the fact that people can't find the house that ticks absolutely everything on their list and is within budget is a surprise. Same for everyone, older people included. "Downsizing" doesn't mean moving to a smaller property, it means moving to a cheaper one. As a rule, these won't be as good as your current place. If they were, they wouldn't be cheaper.
It's done to free up equity, to either use to pay for the increased cost of living, or just because you want more money to spend on nice things.

i'm sorry but what? are you suggesting an elderly woman with limited mobility is being fussy wanting a home she can actually move around and use? 

A little bit. Given she lives in a house with stairs at the moment, she's clearly *able* to live in such a property. Obviously I can absolutely see why she would want to move to a bungalow, that would improve her quality of life. And I totally sympathise around how much it sucks not to be able to afford that because of the relative difference in house prices. But when we're literally talking about moving from a 2/3-bed terrace to a 2-bed bungalow it's not really downsizing. It's an upgrade. 

It's not the costs of moving that are getting in the way here. It's that we're writing off properties like the one she currently lives in as unsuitable. Even though she's perfectly happy living in the one she's in at the moment.

i can't believe i'm having to explain this but when i'm rejecting something as having access issues its because i know my mil and i've actually thought about the suitability of the property. not just on a wim. it's amazing you can make the same assessment having never seen her house never met her and knowing nothing about her mobility or needs. 

what might not have occured to you is we could fit a stair lift in her current house. and the ground floor is big enough she can have a bed in the lounge and the bathroom is already downstairs. turning it into a bunglow with space for one of us to stay upstairs overnight when shes ill or if she needs more help when she gets older.

a top floor flat can't have a stair lift fitted (not unless everyone in the property is okay with it and the hall would have to be wide enough it didn't cause access issues) and theres no option for her to live on the ground floor.

or is that still being fussy?

You've made the points I would have done - thank you. I'm out now - the sheer lack of empathy from some posters on this thread is breathtaking. I can only assume that they are fortunate enough to not yet be at the age themselves where they have elderly family members with health issues and diminishing mobility - as you clearly know it certainly opens your eyes to the problems elderly people face (not least that they are so clearly considered as second class citizens without any right to consideration by some in society!) once you are in a position where you have to deal with those problems on behalf of people you love dearly. I would wish them luck when they DO reach that point, but unless outlooks change considerably I suspect it is their nearest and dearest that need the luck! 

hopefully they'll be lucky and when that time comes the perfect solution will drop into there lap. the reason i am still looking at right move is because if it does we'd be more than happy to help the mil move to somewhere that better suits her needs. but at the moment the list for or against any property leans against. and when you're talking physical practical things (not has it been decorated the way she likes!) ticking the boxes on that list matters. it defo matters more than someone having a problem with her being in a house they think is too big for her. i think i said before its easy to generalise what someone should do but reality is quick and easy solutions dont always exist and something that would work for 9 people might not work for the 10. that doest mean that one person is being fussy just because its a bit more time or work to come up with a solution. 

BooJewels

Mstty said:

It is the nature of forums for someone to take extreme offence to anything said.

I too am an advocate of downsizing when the time is right or when financial hardship takes hold. It is one of the most sensible decisions to make when all you money is tied up in an asset as an example we could sell up quickly for £600k downsize to a bungalow with solar/battery just up the road brand new £350k ASHP designed and EPC B. Even with all fees and getting someone to move everything for us that means pocketing over £200k.

Not offence, in this case but amusement really.  It's very easy to make glib comments about potential downsizing when you're sitting pretty in a £600k+ house with all that equity under your belt.  It's slightly different when your house is worth £120k and there aren't any bungalows under £350k in the area and the only level living is a top floor apartment the size of a postage stamp at £140k. 

Bearing in mind that the conversation originally started from the suggestion that old people living in drafty old multiple bedroom family homes should downsize to free up the larger home for families and reduce their own energy and associated costs.  Some of us suggested that it really wasn't that straightforward for everyone - albeit it might well be for others.  I say that as someone living in what was a family home, after child is now a homeowner of his own and my husband died.  It's something I have considered, but it's neither fiscally or emotionally sensible.  But neither is my hand out asking for help, I can pay my own bills.

BooJewels

@ariarnia - I recently was the concerned daughter of elderly parents who both ended up going straight from home into care after medical incidents, so we never really got as far as more suitable housing - but we certainly had started looking at it and viewed a couple of places.  They did counter initial issues by having a stairlift installed - in itself an expensive and tricky option as they had a double winder staircase with a landing between - which made a dash to the loo out of the question - it took ten minutes!  My 95 year old aunt has looked at a stairlift, but has very narrow stairs - so everyone would have to use it, no walking alongside, as we could with my parents' and there isn't space at the bottom as all the meters and consumer unit are where the chair would need to be.  So if it was necessary, a big expensive job moving stuff.

Now I'm the one suddenly finding myself in possibly not ideal housing situation.  So it is something that has actually been looked at over the last three or so years - it's not just a theoretical exercise for me, I've actually done it.  My main problem is not paying energy bills, but paying tradesmen (if you can find them) to do the jobs that I can't manage myself.  I often am capable, but too short and wary of steps and ladders - and often things just need 2 pairs of hands.

Mstty

Too many to quote on this emotive subject of releasing asset rich funds when money poor but to summarise.

1) just responding to a tail off from the original post about what people can do and referencing our own situation

2) Not glib and not fortunate per se infact for our very first house at that time we had 5 different jobs between us. No University degrees just starting at the bottom and working up and moving on and working up and moving on. In fact still now we run two separate side (very small sidelines) with our jobs as we are not done yet. Hard work very hard work but I don't take offence someone calling it glib, lucky or fortunate if that is how it comes across.

3) Just sharing our plan for the future for retirement/if things come crumbling down and really hope it's motivation for others to plan for their future as much as they can and to realise sometimes their priced asset can release money to make life easier.

I think posts of here need to come with a caveat

(whatever I type(which can be interpreted several ways) it is not aimed at you personally just my life,experiences and resulting viewpoint. I cannot account for every illness/setback/circumstance you find yourself in so please don't take this to heart)

brewerdave

Mstty said:

Too many to quote on this emotive subject of releasing asset rich funds when money poor but to summarise.

1) just responding to a tail off from the original post about what people can do and referencing our own situation

2) Not glib and not fortunate per se infact for our very first house at the time we have 5 different jobs between us. No University degrees just starting at the bottom and working up and moving on and working up and moving on. In fact still now we run two separate side (very small sidelines) with out jobs as we are not done yet. Hard work very hard work but I don't mind someone calling it lucky or fortunate if that is how it comes across.

3) just sharing our plan for the future for retirement/if things come crumbling down and really hope it's motivation for others to plan for their future as much as they can.

I think posts of here need to come with a caveat

(whatever I type(which can be interpreted several ways) it is not aimed at you personally just my life,experiences and resulting viewpoint. I cannot account for every illness/setback/circumstance you find yourself in so please don't take this to heart)

Have been catching up with this thread after not reading for a while, it has drifted so far off from the original title that it really should have been closed down by the mods.
My final comment however ,is aimed at those who are reserving downsizing for a retirement exercise - DON'T leave it too late -I suspect like me , you will be filled with horror at the thought of a house sale/move if you leave it until your mid 70s!!

mmmmikey

All the dicussion here shows just how complex the situation is.

Something else to throw into the pot in relation to what happens when the EPG comes to an end.

As important as the discussion is about how best to protect the most vulnerable, people going cold isn't the only problem that escalating energy prices creates. Suppose the the government were to simply increase benefits such as Universal Credit and then stand back and let the market take care of itself....

1. An immediate and direct effect would be inflation, both directly because energy costs are factored into measures such as CPI and RPI, and indirectly because high energy costs feed into almost everything we buy in the form of manufacturing and transport costs. And once inflation starts to run away there is a very real risk of an inflationary spiral where higher costs mean higher wages and higher wages mean higher costs. So, putting aside how it is funded and targeted, there is a clear argument for using energy price regulation to control inflation and everyone benefits from lower inflation even if they don't benefit directly from energy support.

2. If prices go up in line with underlying market prices, then a lot of households won't be able to pay their bills. There are many, many reasons that people won't be able to pay, and that is an issue that will need to be addressed. We have to deal with the situation how it is, not how we think it should be. For example, you can argue until you're blue in the face that Mr and Mrs Smith from number 7 shouldn't have bought that new car last year or booked that holiday with their kids and it's their own fault they can't pay their bill but that won't help them pay it. If people can't pay their bills the suppliers will see their costs increase due to bad debts and that will inevitably lead to higher prices for everyone else, pushing more people over the edge - yet another spiral of doom. So again, putting aside how it is funded and targeted, there is a clear argument  for using energy price regulation to manage the costs associated with this debt spiral.

Bottom line is, yes there are eye-watering costs associated with supporting energy prices and the current EPG is probably too open ended, but at the other end of the scale there will be eye-watering costs in other places if energy prices aren't supported so not having enough support may be a false economy. I suspect for this latter reason, the new scheme may be somewhat more extensive than many are expecting. And of course if we have a mild winter and/or other things drive the cost of gas down, the cost of any intervention may well be less than expected too.

lisyloo

Agree with you on 2).
if you’ve down well off your own bad, others (to suit their own narrative) will see it as “luck”.
there’s a degree of luck in being healthy enough to work hard, but the rest is application and graft.
unfortunately if you’re doing well you have to deal with the jealous.

wrt 3) planning is great and I totally advocate that. However health can change quite rapidly both physical and mental so that is also not a simple matter.
my dads health deteriorated quite rapidly and once your in the hospital/treatment cycle then it’s quite hard to do things at that stage.
I also have been unable to make things ideal for my dad whilst his wife was alive because the arrangement have had to suit both of them. Now it’s one person it’s easier.

none of it is straight forward.
planning helps but the twists and turns of health can be unexpected.

my dad (for example) is outliving lots of his peer despite having a lot of chronic issues.

BooJewels

brewerdave said:

Have been catching up with this thread after not reading for a while, it has drifted so far off from the original title that it really should have been closed down by the mods.
My final comment however ,is aimed at those who are reserving downsizing for a retirement exercise - DON'T leave it too late -I suspect like me , you will be filled with horror at the thought of a house sale/move if you leave it until your mid 70s!!

I'm horrified at the thought and I'm in my 60s!  I only need to look around at what I can see from here to realise what a horrendous and onerous task it would be  - that was why I said it wasn't emotionally sensible and similar comments earlier - don't underestimate the psychological aspect and stress factor of a later life move.  My case is not helped by just having cleared my parents house earlier this year to sell in a hurry and still having lots of their stuff here to variously sort, sell or dispose of.  If I wanted and could move somewhere nicer, then it might be more palatable than doing it through necessity.

ariarnia

mmmmikey said:

I suspect for this latter reason, the new scheme may be somewhat more extensive than many are expecting. And of course if we have a mild winter and/or other things drive the cost of gas down, the cost of any intervention may well be less than expected too.

OH also keeps pointing out they have to have an election the latest jan 2024 so there might not be any support from april - oct but then they might bung another general 400 at everyone for next winter right before they start campaigning. or the other lot might promise the world to get in depending on how they think of there chances.