EDF have upped our monthly DD to £860, equivalent to £10,300 per year for our 3 bedroom semi

victor2

Chrysalis said:

ariarnia said:

Chrysalis said:

Or use less energy, be disciplined on the heating.

thats not really relevant to how the person pays the bills it just influences how much they have to pay. someone switching to variable dd at the start of winter who thinks they can make regular payments into there own account will still face higher bills over winter than summer even with lowered usage (unless they don't turn the heating on at all) and for the first winter wont have any excess set aside to cover the difference. 

people who switch suppliers in winter are allowed to go into debt on there energy account and set a dd amount lower than their actual monthly usage because their dd will be higher than their summer usage and it will balance out over the 12 months.

someone on a variable dd is not allowed to go into debt (the energy company will chase payment or require a change in payment methods) so will have to cover the full winters bills. it will only be after winter the monthly amount they put aside will start to build up in there own account ready for next winter. 

Its quite simple lets say you like me and your bill is consistent all year round (not all of us need to be bathed in heat).  So in the summer get over billed and in winter closer to what you use.  Switch to Variable DD, pay less in summer and same or little less in winter.

How can that possibly be? So you don't have any gas or electric heating in the winter, don't use lights more during the shorter winter days and don't heat up water ever, as it will take more energy to heat up water in the winter than in the summer??

Chrysalis

victor2 said:

How can that possibly be? So you don't have any gas or electric heating in the winter, don't use lights more during the shorter winter days and don't heat up water ever, as it will take more energy to heat up water in the winter than in the summer??

I use lights slightly more and kettle more, but my fridge is also working less hard and no fans been used, my electric is actually typically higher in the summer.

Yes no room heating in the winter, I grew up in a cold home, and have not molly coddled myself with heat, it is what it is.

I use heating for water of course.  However its done in the same way my dad ran the hot water in my childhood home, the boiler only heats water when I know I am going to need it.  So its only turned on for baths and washing dishes.

ariarnia

Chrysalis said:

ariarnia said:

Chrysalis said:

Or use less energy, be disciplined on the heating.

thats not really relevant to how the person pays the bills it just influences how much they have to pay. someone switching to variable dd at the start of winter who thinks they can make regular payments into there own account will still face higher bills over winter than summer even with lowered usage (unless they don't turn the heating on at all) and for the first winter wont have any excess set aside to cover the difference. 

people who switch suppliers in winter are allowed to go into debt on there energy account and set a dd amount lower than their actual monthly usage because their dd will be higher than their summer usage and it will balance out over the 12 months.

someone on a variable dd is not allowed to go into debt (the energy company will chase payment or require a change in payment methods) so will have to cover the full winters bills. it will only be after winter the monthly amount they put aside will start to build up in there own account ready for next winter. 

Its quite simple lets say you like me and your bill is consistent all year round (not all of us need to be bathed in heat).  So in the summer get over billed and in winter closer to what you use.  Switch to Variable DD, pay less in summer and same or little less in winter.

If its someone who uses more in winter "and" the supplier has been correctly predicting their annual usage, then what happens then is they under pay in winter, and over pay in summer. 

So lets say they pay £100 every month, summer bill is £70, winter bill is £130.  The difference is based on heating.

If they halved their heating the bill would be £100, they would be paying the same as the previous DD and also would have the benefit of only paying £70 in the summer.  It might be more if the account was in debt at the switchover so a one off higher payment to settle the debt, or less if the account was in credit.

Essentially fixed DD is good for people not good with managing money and also good for isolating money to be set aside for use to pay for energy, but it has some pretty horrible downsides such as making people not understand how energy billing works and making people treat their tarrif as unmetered since fixed DD systems dont instantly react to usage changes.

Its only now with the energy cost crisis, people start looking into smart meters, their usage and so forth.  With so many not taking action until as late as the day their supplier informs then their DD is going up because the DD is all they care about.

sorry but i don't think i understand. 

quote; "say you like me and your bill is consistent all year round (not all of us need to be bathed in heat).  So in the summer get over billed and in winter closer to what you use.  Switch to Variable DD, pay less in summer and same or little less in winter."

Your annual dd is set at your estimated 12 month usage divided by 12. so if your summer and winter usage are about the same you would pay more or less exactly the right amount every month. if your supplier is setting your dd higher and you have been giving regular reading then you can challenge your forecast and set it at the rate you think it should be at. if your variable bill and annual monthly dd would be the same then theres no benifit to switching to variable. you would never build up a significant credit anyway. and the downside is that if a bill is unexpectedly high one month you need to find the money from somewhere to cover it rather than your supplier letting you go into debt that month and adjusting your payments for the rest of the year to make up the difference. 

quote:If its someone who uses more in winter "and" the supplier has been correctly predicting their annual usage, then what happens then is they under pay in winter, and over pay in summer. So lets say they pay £100 every month, summer bill is £70, winter bill is £130.  The difference is based on heating.If they halved their heating the bill would be £100, they would be paying the same as the previous DD and also would have the benefit of only paying £70 in the summer. 

it's not just heating as spoonie has said. there are lots of reasons why bills are higher in winter for the vast majority of people. and you are ignoring that if they could halve their heating bill then their annual monthly dd would also go down. no need to pay variable for that to be a benifit.

but to follow your point logically. if annually they paid 1200 before halving there bill then there annual dd would be 100 a month. if they cut their heating my half then their annual bill would be 990 and their monthly dd would be £82.50. 

that's vs the variable payment where they still have to find about 100 a month through winter so are no better off than they were before cutting their bills. at a time when lots of prices have gone up, then most people would still be better cutting their usage as much as they could then having their annual monthly dd recduced so they have that cash to either save or spend on other priorities. THEN look at switching to variable dd in spring if they thought it was right for them. 


 

[Deleted User]

Chrysalis said:

[Deleted User] said:

IanIanIanIanIan said:

Simplest way to stay in control is to move to 'Monthly Variable Direct Debit Whole Amount' and only pay monthly for what you use and get a monthly invoice (instead of six monthly 'billing' of EDF) which just confuses things, and also lets you see exactly how you are going without surprises.

At home start a 'Household Budget Account' perhaps a separate bank account or simply a running spreadsheet, into which you pay a fixed amount monthly but enough to cover your expected bills for the year.  Your account, your money!

A household budget account is ideal for ALL or your fixed outgoings, car tax, insurance, club fees, etc. All the outgoings you may predict somewhat well.  The monthly payment into the account is then a fixed monthly amount which takes the sting out of paying a yearly high bill by spreading the cost over twelve months.

The simplest way to stay in control is to start a new bank account and assume that you are better at predicting price and usage for every service than the companies who provide the service, and that you wouldn't accidentally spend money from this account on some other conflicting urgent need?

I don't think so.

This might be a way of doing it, and it might work for you, but it certainly isn't simple or for everyone.

Well i am certainly better at it than Octopus, they are still predicting on their annual estimator my usage to be 4x what I actually use, and some of us yes can regulate ourselves on spending.

If I trusted my supplier I would be about 3k in credit now and rising rapidly.

You have proven that you have a good handle on things - I have no doubt that the variable DD can be right for you.

I'm just wary that it gets suggested as the "simplest" or "best" answer to almost every DD issue, when for most people it could very well not be the right option.

Chrysalis

I actually see it the other way, you assuming the suppliers get it right all the time and if usage goes down then the fixed DD goes down, I have gotta say, never ever seen that happen.

Last winter I was a grand in credit on fixed DD.  Thats in the winter not summer.  From what ou said that should be impossible, but it happened, and the reason it happened is because my usage doesnt fit the atypical profiled usage, and thats where the automated predictor falls apart.

Octopus not so long ago released a feature where you can see how they predict your costs all the way through the year, and it showed me using a ridiculous amount in winter that simply doesnt fit the reality, they are estimating my usage based on what others use, not what I use which is nonsensical.

So you seem to be making a lot of assumptions, that will not fit every individual, if you notice my comments do have ifs and buts I acknowledge fixed DD is suitable for some people, however you seem to be implying its suitable for everyone and the suppliers can never get it wrong.

Assumptions

Suppliers get it right all the time.
Use more energy in winter than summer, and not only more, but a lot more.
That they reduced DD if usage goes down, I have never seen a DD react to changing usage other than very micro adjustments.

Octopus are still predicting I have 10 thousand KwH annual electric usage even though I now have 7 months of Smart Meter readings at 1/4 that level.  The staff had to do a huge override on my monthly DD.

I was going to screenshot this feature to show, but seems its gone now actually, I last checked it in August.  But it was a complete fairy tale, and this formula is how they calculate the DD's, they predict the annual usage and divide by 12 the cost to set the DD.

Chrysalis

[Deleted User] said:

Chrysalis said:

[Deleted User] said:

IanIanIanIanIan said:

Simplest way to stay in control is to move to 'Monthly Variable Direct Debit Whole Amount' and only pay monthly for what you use and get a monthly invoice (instead of six monthly 'billing' of EDF) which just confuses things, and also lets you see exactly how you are going without surprises.

At home start a 'Household Budget Account' perhaps a separate bank account or simply a running spreadsheet, into which you pay a fixed amount monthly but enough to cover your expected bills for the year.  Your account, your money!

A household budget account is ideal for ALL or your fixed outgoings, car tax, insurance, club fees, etc. All the outgoings you may predict somewhat well.  The monthly payment into the account is then a fixed monthly amount which takes the sting out of paying a yearly high bill by spreading the cost over twelve months.

The simplest way to stay in control is to start a new bank account and assume that you are better at predicting price and usage for every service than the companies who provide the service, and that you wouldn't accidentally spend money from this account on some other conflicting urgent need?

I don't think so.

This might be a way of doing it, and it might work for you, but it certainly isn't simple or for everyone.

Well i am certainly better at it than Octopus, they are still predicting on their annual estimator my usage to be 4x what I actually use, and some of us yes can regulate ourselves on spending.

If I trusted my supplier I would be about 3k in credit now and rising rapidly.

You have proven that you have a good handle on things - I have no doubt that the variable DD can be right for you.

I'm just wary that it gets suggested as the "simplest" or "best" answer to almost every DD issue, when for most people it could very well not be the right option.

I agree on this, which is now why I am careful to say it does have its place for certain situations.  Variable DD is not for everyone.

ariarnia

Chrysalis said:

I actually see it the other way, you assuming the suppliers get it right all the time and if usage goes down then the fixed DD goes down, I have gotta say, never ever seen that happen.

Last winter I was a grand in credit on fixed DD.  Thats in the winter not summer.  From what ou said that should be impossible, but it happened, and the reason it happened is because my usage doesnt fit the atypical profiled usage, and thats where the automated predictor falls apart..

its not impossible but it is if you don't challenge them and dont have the actual readings to back up what you are saying. i don't know about you but we have never had a problem having our dd set at the level we think is right after being with a supplier for at least 12 months. you haven't been wit them for a year and for all they know you have electric radiators in every room that you are only turning on this month for winter... it's hard to blame them for that. have you tried giving them old bills from your supplier last year to show your 'normal' 12 month forecast?

we use about half the national average energy (about 4.5 kw a day annually which is about 2.5 in summer and about 6 in winter). mainly because we are mostly out of the house and our main winter heat is via a log stove so the heating part of our bills doesn't seasonally change our energy bills as much. we don't have the heating completely off because i don't like mould and we live in a damp part of the country but it's set at 16. because we use much less than average they do normally want to set our dd higher than we think it should be. 

but because we keep records and old bills/statements we have never had a problem making the case for setting the dd where we think it should be on the basis that they will review it and it might need to go up if we are wrong. 

the same as i recently had an argument with ovo because our credit is currently at over 1000 and likely to go even higher because we use less than the governments 66 a month. they were saying we had more than a year of credit and should reduce our dd to 5 per month.

i explained our math as to why we should have our dd set so much higher than our actual usage (it is because their calculator doesn't make allowances for the fact our below cap fix ends in March and then we only have about 6 months worth of credit). they agreed but will review in 6 months and if winter is warmer or shorter than we expect we might have a refund. 

Chrysalis

In the end it did get challenged backed by smart meter readings and I got a large refund.  But sadly the automated billing system remained inaccurate.  The lady who fixed the DD gave me the impression its a common problem and the fix they use to stop it been set high again and again is to input into the system that the targeted balance is expected to be met within 15 months.

I am hoping maybe after a year of smart meter readings it will work better, but will see.  Of course for people who do actually have much higher winter bills they need to set aside more money for those months.  But anyway I think we both expired this conversation now, I will move on.

ariarnia

Chrysalis said:

[Deleted User] said:

Chrysalis said:

[Deleted User] said:

IanIanIanIanIan said:

Simplest way to stay in control is to move to 'Monthly Variable Direct Debit Whole Amount' and only pay monthly for what you use and get a monthly invoice (instead of six monthly 'billing' of EDF) which just confuses things, and also lets you see exactly how you are going without surprises.

At home start a 'Household Budget Account' perhaps a separate bank account or simply a running spreadsheet, into which you pay a fixed amount monthly but enough to cover your expected bills for the year.  Your account, your money!

A household budget account is ideal for ALL or your fixed outgoings, car tax, insurance, club fees, etc. All the outgoings you may predict somewhat well.  The monthly payment into the account is then a fixed monthly amount which takes the sting out of paying a yearly high bill by spreading the cost over twelve months.

The simplest way to stay in control is to start a new bank account and assume that you are better at predicting price and usage for every service than the companies who provide the service, and that you wouldn't accidentally spend money from this account on some other conflicting urgent need?

I don't think so.

This might be a way of doing it, and it might work for you, but it certainly isn't simple or for everyone.

Well i am certainly better at it than Octopus, they are still predicting on their annual estimator my usage to be 4x what I actually use, and some of us yes can regulate ourselves on spending.

If I trusted my supplier I would be about 3k in credit now and rising rapidly.

You have proven that you have a good handle on things - I have no doubt that the variable DD can be right for you.

I'm just wary that it gets suggested as the "simplest" or "best" answer to almost every DD issue, when for most people it could very well not be the right option.

I agree on this, which is now why I am careful to say it does have its place for certain situations.  Variable DD is not for everyone.

and so you know i'm not disagreeing. i think variable has its place for some people. i just think it's not a great idea to be changing to variable dd at the start of winter thinking you can make annual payments into your own bank account rather than the suppliers. you can... but probably not until spring and in the meantime you'll need to be sure you can cover whatever the bill might be. 

Spoonie_Turtle

Chrysalis said:
… I grew up in a cold home, and have not molly coddled myself with heat, it is what it is.

So did I - no proper heating until 2019 - and I'm certainly not mollycoddled with external heat (currently wearing leggings, fleece trousers, knee-high bamboo socks, rubber-soled slippers, long-sleeved top, and fluffy jumper, with my big zip-up fleece to hand if I get chilly - most days I've been wearing it, pleasantly surprised I haven't needed to today.  My hands are cool to the touch but not quite cold).  I have layered for years and years, know all the tricks, and that's how I know 'heat the human not the home' is utterly miserable, at least for people who run cold anyway. 


I think it is that differing temperature tolerances as you mentioned before account for most of it.  Two other members of our household are wearing T-shirt and trousers at the moment, one of whom has had a cardigan on and off throughout the day.  The 4th member always wears multiple layers apart from in summer (worked outside all his life, so certainly not unaccustomed to the cold), no different today after getting home.

I've run cold ever since a virus in my teens, even at work and in other people's houses I always had to wear more layers than them and I start to sieze up when I get chilly.  For me T-shirt weather really is only warm summer.