CHIMNEY BREASTS REMOVAL

RexiRoo

I have a property whereas it has come to light that the fireplaces on the ground floor have been removed without any correct supports.

The freeholders have owned the building since late 1970's and they deny all knowledge of the same.  I have contacted local  building control who have no records, so its quiet apparent these were removed unlawfully.  I have visited the local historical society and have original plans going back to the 1800's and the proposal to split the house into two flats back in the 1960's and it is apparent that the original fireplaces were in situ.

What I am looking to do is to narrow down the decade that these could of been removed. Ie; 1970's to 2018 (as I have doc's purporting to them not being there from 2018 to date which I have just obtained)

My question is there anyway to determine, par the normal records to when a fireplace/breast was removed.  I have already covered 'brick up' sections of wall and have been advised that these are not always correct as reclaimed bricks could of been used.

I

Doozergirl

Why do you need to know when it happened? 

Is it just a curiosity thing or is there an end to this?  

RexiRoo

Need to know approximate dates to decade to ensure the correct freeholder at the time is pursued for costs 

Doozergirl

RexiRoo said:

Need to know approximate dates to decade to ensure the correct freeholder at the time is pursued for costs 

Freeholder?   If you are a leaseholder, you buy the remainder of the lease from previous leaseholders.  

You buy a property as it is. 'caveat emptor' = buyer beware.  

You can't reclaim costs for anything if it was like that when you bought.  It was your responsibility to check that everything complied as part of your due diligence.   If you weren't happy, that was your time to renegotiate or pull out.  

There is zero point trying in trying to work out who did it because you have no recourse.  

All you need to know is whether it is safe as it is.  The paperwork is pretty much irrelevant.  

FYI, the building regulations were introduced in 1986. Before that date there will be no record of it and even after that many archives will be lost or on microfiche.  

Bendy_House

I'd put your chance of success at somewhere under a half-percent. That chance, of course, includes the number zero.

I'd put the chance of it being zero at, ooh, around 85%.

RexiRoo

Thought this forum was for assistance?

'There is zero point trying in trying to work out who did it because you have no recourse' - thanks but there is real recourse here as the freeholders actions on the flat below have made the building structurally unsafe and now it is deemed unfit for habitation.

'I'd put your chance of success at somewhere under a half-percent. That chance, of course, includes the number zero' - thanks but really not really an answer to the question poised

Section62

RexiRoo said:

Need to know approximate dates to decade to ensure the correct freeholder at the time is pursued for costs 

You said "The freeholders have owned the building since late 1970's", so does that mean you are trying to work out whether it is the current freeholders, or the ones who sold the freehold to them in the late 1970's?

Do you know who the previous freeholders were?  I.e. was it corporately owned (and that corporation still exists) or was it owned by individuals? Who are probably odds-on dead by now.

RexiRoo

Section62 said:

RexiRoo said:

Need to know approximate dates to decade to ensure the correct freeholder at the time is pursued for costs 

You said "The freeholders have owned the building since late 1970's", so does that mean you are trying to work out whether it is the current freeholders, or the ones who sold the freehold to them in the late 1970's?

Do you know who the previous freeholders were?  I.e. was it corporately owned (and that corporation still exists) or was it owned by individuals? Who are probably odds-on dead by now.

Thanks, the freeholders going back to the 70's are a mix of a family(some still alive) who appears not to know which one held ownership - so the narrowing down the decade would assist in pursuing the correct party 

Doozergirl

How long have you been renovating property for?  I've been doing it non-stop for 23 years and I've been on this forum helping people *and learning* for over 17 years.  

It may not appear helpful, but we can't change the law.   You buy a property as seen and unless someone has outright lied in answer to a direct question then you have no recourse.  In the case of the chimney breasts, they would very much have been missing when you viewed.  It was your own responsibility at that point to 
a) have an appropriate survey
b) request relevant certificates 

If you want some help as to what direction you need to take to move it forwards then we can do that.  

Where is your survey from when you purchased?  What does it say? 

Have you now employed a structural engineer?  

Who has deemed it 'unfit for habitation'?  

Has any effort been made to support what remains above?  What does remain above?  

RexiRoo

Doozergirl said:

How long have you been renovating property for?  I've been doing it non-stop for 23 years and I've been on this forum helping people *and learning* for over 17 years.  

It may not appear helpful, but we can't change the law.   You buy a property as seen and unless someone has outright lied in answer to a direct question then you have no recourse.  In the case of the chimney breasts, they would very much have been missing when you viewed.  It was your own responsibility at that point to 
a) have an appropriate survey
b) request relevant certificates 

If you want some help as to what direction you need to take to move it forwards then we can do that.  

Where is your survey from when you purchased?  What does it say? 

Have you now employed a structural engineer?  

Who has deemed it 'unfit for habitation'?  

Has any effort been made to support what remains above?  What does remain above?  

Thanks - the property has been in my ownership for 30 years and the survey we had undertaken was for the flat in question and nothing was flagged up - this all pertains to actions on a ground floor flat that we have no control on and would not have undertaken a survey for a separate demise.

Have engaged two structural surveyors to look at it, once we were aware this year on how serious this was, the valuation office have deemed it unfit, likewise the two structural surveyors - in short we have over 10 tonnes of unsupported chimney breasts sitting on joist with no correct support.  We are unable to support the above as we would need access to downstairs and the downstairs flat would need to be vacated.  The current owner/tenant have no desire to do the same.

I am just looking to see if there is any way to establish when the downstairs chimney breasts may of been removed, ie; forensic structural surveyors, carbon test etc.

Doozergirl

It makes a little more sense now there's
more of a story to this. 

It's probably going to be a leaseholder that was responsible for the removal, no?  Freeholders can go without ever seeing inside the leased flats.  

It sounds like the current freeholder needs to be involved from a perspective of a breach of the terms of lease by someone and/or forcing access to do works for the safety of the building and sharing the cost out?  

The costs of trying to trace/sue some presently unknown entity would be more than the cost of work itself.  Whilst the looming threat is terrifying, the work to rectify it quickly shouldn't be all that great, nor the cost, especially compared to professional fees.