Should I pay for my neighbour's fence?

Cheerio90

No it's all Victorian houses.

Mr Smith has lived in his house 25+ years and I presume until Mr Jones erected the new fence he was happy to maintain his own boundary. 

Thank you

Cheerio90

Bendy_House

Hello Cheerio.

"Fast forward a couple of months and the neighbour (let's call him Mr Smith) on our right (not the attached side) knocks on the door... he is having some repairs to his back fence and wants to know if we recommend the company we used. We do. Anyway, he then drops in some information we were not aware of. The previous owner, let's call him Mr Jones, was not happy with Mr Smith's hedges and wanted him to put up a fence, for security reasons. Mr Smith was not keen but eventually I suppose it was agreed and Mr Jones paid for the new fence on the right side of our house."

Yeah, a bit of a cheeky blighter! The previous owner of your house put up a fence they didn't have 'responsibility' for, and now your neighb thinks it's a done deal for the future!

Q - is the hedge still there? If so, does that mean that 'your' (Mr Jones') fence is now well inside your property boundary? Or did the fence replace the hedges? (If the former, then that could be worrying for a different reason...)

Ok, facts:

1) The previous owner of your house didn't have to put a fence up on that side or remove the hedge - that was their decision, and done for their own 'security' reasons. And Mr Smith didn't have to do this either, even tho' it's their 'responsibility' to 'maintain'.

2) If the fence Mr Jones put up is on your side of the boundary line (can you determine where - EXACTLY - the ACTUAL boundary line is?!), then that fence is your property. If it's on the boundary line, then it's your 'physical' fence (you probably own the wood!), but remains Mr Smith's 'responsibility' as presumably it says in the deeds, or in the general agreement in that 'hood. If the hedge was first removed, then it's also quite possible that Mr Jones positioned the fence on Mr Smith's side of the boundary line (as Mr Smith would likely have done had they installed it), so - whilst the wood belongs to 'you', it has effectively been gifted to Mr Smith as it's on his land; you shouldn't touch it without permission. Phew.

3) If the fence falls down, no-one has to do anything about it! Unless - one party has animals (including children) they wish to retain within their ground, or the deeds state in writing that a physical fence or boundary must be maintained. (Even then, it would be hard to enforce...). Generally, deeds imply a 'responsibility' to maintain, but in practice this is nigh-on impossible to enforce in law.

4) You now have the delicate tightrope to navigate between being friendly and neighbourly, and not being taken for a ride.

I think that about covers it :-)

So, what do you do? First find out about No. (2) - where is that fence positioned? Then, in your next friendly meeting about the fence, you can say summat like, "I've looked into this - it's really interesting! Apparently, no-one has to do anything about a fence if they really don't want to! Lol! If it falls down, no-one HAS to put up a new one! Double-lol... Unless they have dawgs they want to keep hemmed in, of course. But, thankfully, all the lovely neighbours on this road do the right thing/have agreed/follow their deeds and take responsibility for their LH fence, and the one at the bottom of their gardens. Seems fair to me!" Judge their response to this, and if he brings up "But Mr Jones put up this fence so..." with "Yes, you lucky thing! You got away with that one, lol! But it makes no difference BIG SMILE!"

If he protests further, look surprised/puzzled/disappointed and just say, "I'm pretty certain what I've read is correct, but I'm more than happy to be shown otherwise - could you try and find out for me, please, and let me know?" And, of course, he won't be able to... Change the subject to the weather, but NOT Brexit :-)

Try and turn the situation around so that HE has to prove the situation he claims, rather than you defend one he's made up.

If he turns out to be a complete a'ole, and when the fence does fall down he deliberately does nothing about it, then at least you'll know where you stand, and - if you want a fence - that'll be on your ground putting up another bludy fence :-( 'Cos you cannot force them to.

Are they house and garden proud? Do they have dawgs? If so, that will pile the pressure on them to sort it - as they SHOULD (and, if their dog wanders into your garden, you CAN then force them to - but you ideally don't want to go there). But if you have the dawg, then you'll likely find yourself stuffed, if he's an 'ole.

Cheerio90

Hi Bendy_House

Thanks for the lengthly reply. Made me laugh a few times.

The hedge was removed when the fence was put up and it runs exactly halfway between our house and we both have matching garden gates, the same width, so I've every reason to believe there's been no boundary change, and certainly Mr Smith has not mentioned this.

Legally I understand he cannot force us to pay for the fence, likewise we can't force him. There's no dogs but I have the two boys, one being autistic and would definitely wander off if there was no physical barrier. He has no young children.

I hope to maintain a good 'neighbourly' relationship with him. He currently has some scaffolding on his land from our house that's being repainted, so he's amicable like that, as am I. I wish to continue this way.

I think I will agree to go halves should the need arise, I will make it known that it's a gesture of good 'nieghbourly' behaviour and it is a ONE TIME arrangement. I will not pay for the ongoing repairs in the future. This sounds reasonable I think. 

Thanks again for all input.

Cheerio90

Gavin83

Cheerio90 said:

Hi Bendy_House

I think I will agree to go halves should the need arise, I will make it known that it's a gesture of good 'nieghbourly' behaviour and it is a ONE TIME arrangement. I will not pay for the ongoing repairs in the future. This sounds reasonable I think. 

Thanks again for all input.

Cheerio90

I don’t think you’re really understanding what people are telling you. Your neighbour has no requirement to go halves on this fence. He might agree to of course in order to maintain good neighbourly relations but he certainly has no obligation to. Ultimately it’s not his problem, even if you clearly think it is.

Therefore I think you need to be prepared for what you’ll do if he says no. He’s clearly under the impression it’s your problem after all.

Essentially the responsibility of the fence lies with no one. Therefore who’ll be responsible for it will either come down to negotiation or who wants the fence more. Given what you’ve written it sounds like you have far more of a requirement for the fence than he does so it doesn’t really put you in a strong position for making demands.

Ultimately though the best solution is negotiation and I agree with the ‘go halves’ suggestion. However I don’t think you should be pushing how great a neighbour you are for agreeing to this or letting him know it’s his problem in the future. It’s not his problem in the future after all and you’re far more likely to sour the relations than just agreeing to go halves.

theoretica

Seems to me that a good course of action would be to make sure the fence is well maintained and so put off any expensive work as long as possible.

Bendy_House

Gavin83 said:

Cheerio90 said:

Hi Bendy_House

I think I will agree to go halves should the need arise, I will make it known that it's a gesture of good 'nieghbourly' behaviour and it is a ONE TIME arrangement. I will not pay for the ongoing repairs in the future. This sounds reasonable I think. 

Thanks again for all input.

Cheerio90

I don’t think you’re really understanding what people are telling you. Your neighbour has no requirement to go halves on this fence. He might agree to of course in order to maintain good neighbourly relations but he certainly has no obligation to. Ultimately it’s not his problem, even if you clearly think it is.

Therefore I think you need to be prepared for what you’ll do if he says no. He’s clearly under the impression it’s your problem after all.

Essentially the responsibility of the fence lies with no one. Therefore who’ll be responsible for it will either come down to negotiation or who wants the fence more. Given what you’ve written it sounds like you have far more of a requirement for the fence than he does so it doesn’t really put you in a strong position for making demands.

Ultimately though the best solution is negotiation and I agree with the ‘go halves’ suggestion. However I don’t think you should be pushing how great a neighbour you are for agreeing to this or letting him know it’s his problem in the future. It’s not his problem in the future after all and you’re far more likely to sour the relations than just agreeing to go halves.

I think Cheerio fully understands the situation.

And agreeing to go halves with what is the NEIGHB's moral duty is a generous and thoughtful call.

I see no trumpeting of him being a great neighb for doing this, rather it's a pragmatic and neighbourly solution, one he shouldn't have to do, but is still happy to. 

(So that DOES make him a great neighb in my eyes!)

No-one HAS to fix 'their' fence, but you'd have to be an 'ole to not do so.

Cheerio90

Thanks Bendy-House.

Gavin83, I'm struggling to see your point here but perhaps it is you who has failed to understand my first question. I'm not making any demands on my neighbour at all. I haven't told him to do anything. 

He has raised the query that if in the future the fence on his boundary needs repairing, then who will pay. I have raised the question that is it fair that I pay for the maintenance for three fences and he only needs to pay for the small one at the back, simply because of a financial arrangement with the previous owner that I was not aware of. 

If he wants to pull the fence down and replant a hedge then he can, I wouldn't have a problem as that's his boundary. No fence at all, although legal, wouldn't be in the interest of either of us. I have small children and he has his grandchild over a lot and to suddenly be 'sharing' a garden wouldn't be something either of us would pursue. If you haven't already gathered it from my posts, I'm not the sort of neighbour that makes demands, but having no physical boundary, in a long line of Victorian houses where everyone has a fence/hedge/wall, just doesn't seem 'normal' or something I would expect my neighbour to want anyway. 

My question really was looking at how others might approach this situation as my main goal is to remain on good terms while not inheriting something else to pay for long term. 

Thanks

Cheerio90

Gavin83

Cheerio90 said:

My question really was looking at how others might approach this situation as my main goal is to remain on good terms while not inheriting something else to pay for long term. 

To be fair I've answered this. I think the best solution is to suggest going halves on the fence as you suggested. I don't think adding that you're doing it as a good neighbourly gesture or that it's a one time only thing will help the situation though. If he sees it as your responsibility (which it comes across as in your posts) then this could aggravate him for no benefit. After all if the fence is done right it's likely one of you will have moved out by the time it's a problem again.

You could certainly argue that morally it's his problem. The issue with that is people have different ideas of morals. While I agree with Bendy that you'd have to be an 'ole to let your fence fall down and do nothing about it the country is full of such people. I'm hoping your neighbour is a reasonable person and it won't be a problem but ultimately he has no legal obligation to maintain this fence. I think it would be useful to think of what you might do if he does say no but if you're confident he'll agree then you could just deal with it as you come to it.

I'm actually in a similar situation. Moved in last year and the fence between my neighbour and myself has seen better days. We've agreed between us that we'll pay half each. It's definitely the best solution despite who's technically responsible for it. In all honesty I've actually no idea whos fence it actually is.

I also appreciate how expensive and annoying it can be to be responsible for a large number of fences. We have a lot of fence panels. There's a another fence which is even worse than the one above (it's one storm away from falling down) but it's not our responsibility. They're not interested in replacing it, even with an offer of going halves. So there it will stay, until it falls down, at which point the hole will likely remain as I can't see them replacing it even then.

Good luck with the whole episode however it turns out.

Section62

Cheerio90 said:

Gavin83, I'm struggling to see your point here but perhaps it is you who has failed to understand my first question. I'm not making any demands on my neighbour at all. I haven't told him to do anything.

You haven't told him to do anything yet, but you have put him "on notice" that you will be expecting him to contribute financially to the cost of replacing/repairing a fence which - if the story is true - was funded and arguably belonged to the previous owner of your property.  Therefore Mr Smith is likely to be correct that the fence now belongs to you and you are responsible for it.

Being told that you expect him to pay 50% is unlikely to be well received (if the facts are as claimed).

Cheerio90 said:

He has raised the query that if in the future the fence on his boundary needs repairing, then who will pay. I have raised the question that is it fair that I pay for the maintenance for three fences and he only needs to pay for the small one at the back, simply because of a financial arrangement with the previous owner that I was not aware of.

It isn't about "fair".  It isn't Mr Smith's problem that you purchased a property where you were already 'legally' responsible for two fences, plus an additional fence that your vendor obtained informal permission to put up on the boundary with Mr Smith's property.  Unless agreed otherwise, you need to pay for the maintenance of what belongs to you.  If you purchased the 'Mr Smith' fence then it is yours, and Mr Smith needs to do nothing towards maintenance and replacement of it.

The "financial arrangement with the previous owner that I was not aware of" is a problem you have with the previous owner and/or your respective solicitors.  It isn't Mr Smith's problem.

stig

‘Responsible for the existing fence’ does not equal ‘responsible for replacing the existing fence like for like ad infinitum.’

you own this physical fence. You are therefore responsible for making sure it doesn’t become a danger or nuisance to your neighbour, for example by falling over in a state of disrepair. At any time you can remove the fence you own. You can then replace it with

whatever you like on your side of the boundary,

whatever you both agree on actually on the boundary line, or

nothing at all.

Same for your neighbour, except he can’t remove the existing fence as it isn’t his (it’s currently doing the job of marking the position of the boundary for him, but if it wasn’t there he could do this with a piece of string between two canes if he wished.)

You’re  luckier  than many in that both neighbours are happy with what is currently in place and this is only a future problem. If and when it does become a issue, the ‘fairest’ thing is that if both neighbours want the boundary to be a fence they share the cost, but there are  lots of factors involved - for example,  if I’d agreed to remove a hedge so a neighbour could  install a fence, I’d be miffed to be asked to fund another replacement fence if I thought my original hedge would still have been going strong. It all comes down to compromise.

I’ve no idea who owns the three boundaries to my  garden - over the years we’ve replaced the two side fences with our neighbours agreement because it was worth it to us, with dogs, to have control of the process, and the fence at the bottom was replaced by the neighbour who wanted to have their whole garden fenced in the same style -  fine with us.  All sorted by short friendly conversations in which the question of boundary ownership never came up.