Gross Misconduct Dismissal based on hearsay

winewicket

Good Morning,

Over the course of this month, I have been through the process of an allegation made against me in my now former workplace.

I have appealed the dismissal, but was wondering if an employer can dismiss you based on nothing more than hear say?

There is literally no evidence whatsoever to support the allegation, which I may add is completely fabricated, other than a statement written by my new manager who has not been in the job no more than 6 months as opposed to my faultless 4 year service.

I feel trapped atm, and feel as though I have now lost my job for literally no reason. The company have literally left me in a very difficult position, they were aware of my mental health issues and my current financial problems, as I was literally on the verge of a payrise.

I have appealed the dismissal, and I am fully motivated to take it to a tribunal, as all the allegations are false and they have no substantial evidence to back them.

How can I be dismissed firstly whilst I am innocent, and secondly without evidence to support there allegations?

Andy_L

How long have you worked there? <2 years and you can be out the door for any or no reason they like, as long as it isn't sex/race/religion etc 4+ years so not an issue

It almost certainly isn't hearsay - hearsay is when somebody says what somebody else said rather than the person themselves saying it.
eg person A telling the boss that Person B said that winewicket did something worthy of being fired would be hearsay

person B telling the boss directly that winewicket did something worthy of being fired is not hearsay. It's a verbal statement which can be enough evidence to dismiss someone, an employer doesn't have to reach the criminal standard of "beyond reasonable doubt".

Undervalued

winewicket said:

Good Morning,

Over the course of this month, I have been through the process of an allegation made against me in my now former workplace.

I have appealed the dismissal, but was wondering if an employer can dismiss you based on nothing more than hear say?

There is literally no evidence whatsoever to support the allegation, which I may add is completely fabricated, other than a statement written by my new manager who has not been in the job no more than 6 months as opposed to my faultless 4 year service.

I feel trapped atm, and feel as though I have now lost my job for literally no reason. The company have literally left me in a very difficult position, they were aware of my mental health issues and my current financial problems, as I was literally on the verge of a payrise.

I have appealed the dismissal, and I am fully motivated to take it to a tribunal, as all the allegations are false and they have no substantial evidence to back them.

How can I be dismissed firstly whilst I am innocent, and secondly without evidence to support there allegations?

The short answer is yes.

To dismiss fairly (in law) an employer must do three things....

Make a reasonable (layman's) attempt to conduct a fair process.

Form a "reasonable belief" that the misconduct took place.

Then, dismissal must be within the range of sanctions a reasonable employer might choose.

Ultimately only a tribunal can decide what is reasonable but it is important to understand that an employer does not need proof, only a "reasonable belief". Providing they have a reasonable belief the dismissal will be fair, even if it is later proved that the belief was wrong. All that matters is that it was reasonable to believe that at the time.

As has been mentioned above, this is not a criminal matter which would have to be proved "beyond a reasonable doubt" (say 95%). It is not even a civil claim decided "on the balance of probabilities" (say 51%). It is closer to that but arguably the employment tribunal threshold of a "reasonable belief" is below 50%.

Your employer may (or may not) be below that, there is not enough information to say.

As also mentioned above, you misunderstand what is hear say. In any case hearsay is not automatically excluded in an employment tribunal, where evidence rules are not as strict as other courts.

Exodi

winewicket said:

There is literally no evidence whatsoever to support the allegation, which I may add is completely fabricated, other than a statement written by my new manager who has not been in the job no more than 6 months as opposed to my faultless 4 year service.

So your manager has said you did something which you reject happening?

As others above have said, this is not hearsay and I think there is a misunderstanding on the level of proof.

For example (and please do not infer that I suggest you did this): if I was to call my boss a [insert profanity here] to his face, and he reported this, the only evidence would be his word. If I were to deny it happened, the employer would then have to make a decision on their reasonable belief.

Unfortunately being on verge of a payrise, or being in financial hardship is irrelevant. Gross Misconduct can not only apply to those with fat savings accounts.

If you genuinely didn't do what has been alleged, but the employer has sided with the manager that you did, and their is no evidence - then this may be a case of 'life isn't fair'.

Would there be any motive to the manager having you sacked?

winewicket

There are many variables here that I haven't mentioned, he states that I came in to work that day looking "not normal" but as I have told them I was tapering from my mental health medication, he insisted that it must of been something else. ( It wasn't ) I also hadn't slept for the best part of a week before this incident.

I then had a minor accident, completely nothing to do with the apparent mental state there trying to make me out to have been in.

At the time the manager if I was as he says could of pulled the CCTV footage to back his statement, and prove my innocence, he didn't and the footage is now been written over.

I also had a few friends visit me at work shortly after the incident, they are serving police officers and seargant and have made a counter statement to the alleged accusations.

I haven't given this into my employer yet as my appeal was based on the facts and my reasons as to why I think it's too severe and unfair etc.

As I am completely innocent I just find it really tough to accept that they are legally allowed to treat me this way.

B0bbyEwing

Hang on a sec. 

So reading the opening responses here.... I can go to my boss right now, say Frank over there said F U bossman. Soon as work is done with today he said he's going to do you in. 

Of course, I'm making it up. Frank actually told me what a fantastic guy the boss is. But I'm just stirring it. 

And the boss can then fire Frank based on my nonsense? 

I surely hope THAT is nonsense because that's just not right if it's that easy to get rid of someone. 

Exodi

B0bbyEwing said:

Hang on a sec. 

So reading the opening responses here.... I can go to my boss right now, say Frank over there said F U bossman. Soon as work is done with today he said he's going to do you in. 

Of course, I'm making it up. Frank actually told me what a fantastic guy the boss is. But I'm just stirring it. 

And the boss can then fire Frank based on my nonsense? 

I surely hope THAT is nonsense because that's just not right if it's that easy to get rid of someone. 

No, re-read the responses, what you've said would be a good example of hearsay. This is clarified in literally the first sentence of the first reply.

What the OP if referring to is a direct interaction, not hearsay - Frank saying F U to the bossman directly in your example.

lincroft1710

winewicket said:

There are many variables here that I haven't mentioned, he states that I came in to work that day looking "not normal" but as I have told them I was tapering from my mental health medication, he insisted that it must of been something else. ( It wasn't ) I also hadn't slept for the best part of a week before this incident.

I then had a minor accident, completely nothing to do with the apparent mental state there trying to make me out to have been in.

At the time the manager if I was as he says could of pulled the CCTV footage to back his statement, and prove my innocence, he didn't and the footage is now been written over.

I also had a few friends visit me at work shortly after the incident, they are serving police officers and seargant and have made a counter statement to the alleged accusations.

I haven't given this into my employer yet as my appeal was based on the facts and my reasons as to why I think it's too severe and unfair etc.

As I am completely innocent I just find it really tough to accept that they are legally allowed to treat me this way.

This strikes me as odd, having friends visit you at work unless either you invited them or you work in  a customer fronting role. If they were not present when the (alleged) incident actually occurred, their counter statement may not carry much weight. I would also add that following recent publicised actions and inactions of individual officers and the service as a whole, respect for and trust in the police has greatly diminished.


You also mention a "minor accident". Was this a car accident (or similar) off work premises or something on work premises where damage and/or injury did or did not occur.

comeandgo

What sort of environment do you work in?  Is it heavy plant and machinery?  Was it thought you were under the influence of drugs?  

Jude57

winewicket said:

There are many variables here that I haven't mentioned, he states that I came in to work that day looking "not normal" but as I have told them I was tapering from my mental health medication, he insisted that it must of been something else. ( It wasn't ) I also hadn't slept for the best part of a week before this incident.

I then had a minor accident, completely nothing to do with the apparent mental state there trying to make me out to have been in.

At the time the manager if I was as he says could of pulled the CCTV footage to back his statement, and prove my innocence, he didn't and the footage is now been written over.

I also had a few friends visit me at work shortly after the incident, they are serving police officers and seargant and have made a counter statement to the alleged accusations.

I haven't given this into my employer yet as my appeal was based on the facts and my reasons as to why I think it's too severe and unfair etc.

As I am completely innocent I just find it really tough to accept that they are legally allowed to treat me this way.

If you did not do what you are accused of doing or did do what you are accused of not doing then stick to the facts of that for your appeal.

From the employer's perspective, you attended work when your manager was concerned about your manner. You admit you hadn't slept well for some time. You were tapering from medication - is it possible that you did in fact seem 'off'? Your manager can't be expected to have detailed knowledge or experience of how medication affects employees (unless that is literally their job). You had an accident at work - was this due to the effects of your medication or your own lack of care and attention which may have been due to tiredness?

It's nice to have friends who will give you a character reference but unless they witnessed you all day that day, what they observed 'shortly after' is irrelevant, as is their occupation. 

None of the factors concerning your tiredness, medication or friends are relevant to your being dismissed, in my opinion. What MAY be relevant is deletion of CCTV. If it's normally deleted after a specified time and on this occasion was deleted early, that could be a factor your employer should consider. Also, if, say, the admin person is the one who usually deletes it as part of their  normal job but in this case your manager personally deleted it or arranged for it to be deleted, that could also be relevant.

While your mental health issues might meet the legal definition of a disability for employment purposes, your employer doesn't have to put your rights above the safety of other employees or customers/clients/patients. Such a disability doesn't give you total protection from dismissal.

robatwork

Can they sack you?  Yes
Are they right to sack you? Only you know, someone else thinks so including your eventual boss, and only a tribunal can decide if it's fair
Evidence? This was a statement given by a senior colleague. It can be true, false or partially true. But it isn't hearsay (something somebody else said that you heard).  The evidence can be tested in a tribunal.

Good luck