Conversion of M3 to Kwh (as opposed to Khw!)

k_man

MWT said:

k_man said:

I suspect the solution would be to show the decimal places used.

... or probably easier, just do the calculation using the same values as are displayed in the bill...

The real mistake though was to move away from just using whole numbers simply because they could...

I assume the use of partial m3 (to 2 dp at least) from smart meters is part of the technology use for daily (e.g Tracker) or other potential future variable rate tariffs.

Whole m3 on Tracker would lead to some very odd results

ETA, and as suggested, billing uses partial m3, but the figures displayed on the bills don't (yet).

If only Octopus had direct access to their billing system provider....

MWT

k_man said:

MWT said:

k_man said:

I suspect the solution would be to show the decimal places used.

... or probably easier, just do the calculation using the same values as are displayed in the bill...

The real mistake though was to move away from just using whole numbers simply because they could...

I assume the use of partial m3 (to 2 dp at least) from smart meters is part of the technology use for daily (e.g Tracker) or other potential future variable rate tariffs.

Whole m3 on Tracker would lead to some very odd results

Agreed, but the billing methodology for Tracker is different, and should be on a different code path through Kraken, so shouldn't be impacting  the vast majority of their gas customers who are not on the only existing ToU tariff for gas. 

k_man

MWT said:

k_man said:

MWT said:

k_man said:

I suspect the solution would be to show the decimal places used.

... or probably easier, just do the calculation using the same values as are displayed in the bill...

The real mistake though was to move away from just using whole numbers simply because they could...

I assume the use of partial m3 (to 2 dp at least) from smart meters is part of the technology use for daily (e.g Tracker) or other potential future variable rate tariffs.

Whole m3 on Tracker would lead to some very odd results

Agreed, but the billing methodology for Tracker is different, and should be on a different code path through Kraken, so shouldn't be impacting  the vast majority of their gas customers who are not on the only existing ToU tariff for gas. 

Good point.

Whole m3 would make IHD and app usage figures interesting though 😉

QrizB

[Deleted User] said:

calorificvalue said:

Either it's a scam waiting tin the wings or they just incompetent. 

That's where your problem really lies.  You decided that there's some deliberate scam to cheat customers out of money - hence the aggressive way you approached the issue when you started spamming the forum earlier.

Now we've had some actual details and discovered plausible explanations for it, you've added incompetent as an option.

Reality is probably more like the billing department have decided to 'upgrade' the calculations by taking advantage of the additional accuracy provided by smart meters and nobody has noticed the inadvertent issue this created with the narrative on the bills.  I wouldn't even stretch to call that incompetent, only unfortunate and disjointed.

I'd go further.

I think Ofgem dictate the general format and content of energy bills, and I imagine that it's Ofgem who have stipulated that the volume of gas used in the formula on bills shall be rounded to 1 decimal place. Octopus may be fully aware that the calculation as printed on the bills is wrong, but their hands are tied.

[Deleted User]

k_man said:

MWT said:

k_man said:

MWT said:

k_man said:

I suspect the solution would be to show the decimal places used.

... or probably easier, just do the calculation using the same values as are displayed in the bill...

The real mistake though was to move away from just using whole numbers simply because they could...

I assume the use of partial m3 (to 2 dp at least) from smart meters is part of the technology use for daily (e.g Tracker) or other potential future variable rate tariffs.

Whole m3 on Tracker would lead to some very odd results

Agreed, but the billing methodology for Tracker is different, and should be on a different code path through Kraken, so shouldn't be impacting  the vast majority of their gas customers who are not on the only existing ToU tariff for gas. 

Good point.

Whole m3 would make IHD and app usage figures interesting though 😉

Any kWh usage figures showing on an IHD or in an App such as BRIGHT use a fixed calorific value. The smart meter comms hub contains a gas proxy meter that takes usage and tariff details from the gas meter. The proxy meter does the calculations to save gas meter battery life.

k_man

[Deleted User] said:

k_man said:

MWT said:

k_man said:

MWT said:

k_man said:

I suspect the solution would be to show the decimal places used.

... or probably easier, just do the calculation using the same values as are displayed in the bill...

The real mistake though was to move away from just using whole numbers simply because they could...

I assume the use of partial m3 (to 2 dp at least) from smart meters is part of the technology use for daily (e.g Tracker) or other potential future variable rate tariffs.

Whole m3 on Tracker would lead to some very odd results

Agreed, but the billing methodology for Tracker is different, and should be on a different code path through Kraken, so shouldn't be impacting  the vast majority of their gas customers who are not on the only existing ToU tariff for gas. 

Good point.

Whole m3 would make IHD and app usage figures interesting though 😉

Any kWh usage figures showing on an IHD or in an App such as BRIGHT use a fixed calorific value. The smart meter comms hub contains a gas proxy meter that takes usage and tariff details from the gas meter. The proxy meter does the calculations to save gas meter battery life.

I was thinking more daily/ hourly usages showing only whole m3.

Or the potential complaints of the form:

My bill shows 5m3 used, but my app totals to 4.7m3 etc...

However, time to move on.

calorificvalue

QrizB said:

Deleted_User said:

calorificvalue said:

Either it's a scam waiting tin the wings or they just incompetent. 

That's where your problem really lies.  You decided that there's some deliberate scam to cheat customers out of money - hence the aggressive way you approached the issue when you started spamming the forum earlier.

Now we've had some actual details and discovered plausible explanations for it, you've added incompetent as an option.

Reality is probably more like the billing department have decided to 'upgrade' the calculations by taking advantage of the additional accuracy provided by smart meters and nobody has noticed the inadvertent issue this created with the narrative on the bills.  I wouldn't even stretch to call that incompetent, only unfortunate and disjointed.

I'd go further.

I think Ofgem dictate the general format and content of energy bills, and I imagine that it's Ofgem who have stipulated that the volume of gas used in the formula on bills shall be rounded to 1 decimal place. Octopus may be fully aware that the calculation as printed on the bills is wrong, but their hands are tied.

Then can someone kindly explain why every other supplier has bills which balance this calculation. Only OCTOPUS seems to produce "magic maths". The bills from OCTOPUS balanced from Feb 2019 to April 2022, then went nuts.
The first response from OCTOPUS was to suggest a problem with the meter. I threw that back at them, and then got a reply thus:-
==
The reason these figures appear to be more out over the last few months than they have done in previous bills is because the usage has been much lower. The billing team has advised that this does sometimes happen with bills for very short periods and low consumption figures. The rounding of the meter readings and calorific values has more impact when the usage is lower.
==
Weird - Never happened before. All replies are just waffle.

The calculation used is apparently known only to senior management.
Quote OCTOPUS "daily calorific values and exact formula for a given bill is not information that is readily available to non-senior members of the team."
Also "We are not able to provide you with the exact calculation we use to calculate the charges that appear on you statement".

Why not?

And the one decimal place rounding of the cal val has been in place since the start of the billing from OCTOPUS. Even longer, I think.

There is NO plausible explanation. They will NOT disclose how they make the calculation.
All I want is a bill which makes sense.
When my fixed tariff comes to an end, I'm off somewhere else.

And OK,  I did set off aggressively, not good, but after months of battering my head against OCTOPUS's brick wall, I just had to try to tell as many folks as I could that there is something odd going on at OCTOPUS.

It's your choice, side with them or me. Find some flimsy excuse for their behaviour if you wish, but I for one have had enough.

And finally take a look at TRUSTPILOT reviews for this lot. It's an eye-opener.

[Deleted User]

calorificvalue said:

QrizB said:

Deleted_User said:

calorificvalue said:

Either it's a scam waiting tin the wings or they just incompetent. 

That's where your problem really lies.  You decided that there's some deliberate scam to cheat customers out of money - hence the aggressive way you approached the issue when you started spamming the forum earlier.

Now we've had some actual details and discovered plausible explanations for it, you've added incompetent as an option.

Reality is probably more like the billing department have decided to 'upgrade' the calculations by taking advantage of the additional accuracy provided by smart meters and nobody has noticed the inadvertent issue this created with the narrative on the bills.  I wouldn't even stretch to call that incompetent, only unfortunate and disjointed.

I'd go further.

I think Ofgem dictate the general format and content of energy bills, and I imagine that it's Ofgem who have stipulated that the volume of gas used in the formula on bills shall be rounded to 1 decimal place. Octopus may be fully aware that the calculation as printed on the bills is wrong, but their hands are tied.

It's your choice, side with them or me. 

Enough said.  You don’t want advice, you want allies in a crusade.

[Deleted User]

Just to be clear there is no calorific value rounding. The correct terminology is truncating.

For example, a calorific value of 39.9999 might be rounded to 40 for simplicity. Under Ofgem’s 2014 guidance, 39.9999 would be truncated to 39.9 for billing purposes.

MWT

... and having reviewed a bunch of my bills I am happy that the calorific value is being correctly truncated.

The only issue is displaying meter readings rounded to one decimal place, but calculated using the actual meter reading.

The impact is purely visual though as the calculation is correct, it is just the displayed rounded values that cause the confusion.