Transfer ownership of property after death

whizzywoo

I am attempting to tidy up my deceased Mother's estate.

Brief outline:  My Mother and her partner owned their house and land as Tenants in Common.

My Mother died in 2017 and her Will leaves her half of the house and land to her 3 children ie myself and my 2 siblings.

Her partner (who we call our Stepfather but he is not legally as they never married) has a Life Interest to live in the property until he dies or remarries.  In due course the other half of the house & land will be left to us 3 siblings as our Mother and her Partner made mutual Wills.  He has no children of his own.

Myself, my siblings and my "Stepfather" are all Executors to my Mother's Will and are holding her half of the house & land in Trust.

I have recently discovered that the Trust needed to be registered with HMRC and I have done this.

There are 3 Titles involved, the house & garden, plus 2 plots of land adjoining the house & garden.  At the Land Registry all three still show that my Mother and her partner own the properties with the restriction meaning they were held as Tenants in Common.

We (the 4 Trustees) would like to tidy this up and transfer my Mother's half us as the Trustees.  We obtained Probate a few months after my Mother passed on.

I have spoken to the Solicitor who dealt with the Wills and my Mother's Probate and she is of the opinion that it is not necessary to inform the Land Registry and do the Transfer but we are not so sure.

Because there are 3 Land Titles the charge for doing this would be a few hundred pounds, which none of can afford to pay.  Is it something we can do ourselves?  And if we do it ourselves do we transfer my Mother's half to the 3 beneficiaries (myself and siblings) or transfer it to the 4 Trustees (myself, siblings and "Stepfather")?

Marcon

whizzywoo said:

I am attempting to tidy up my deceased Mother's estate.

Brief outline:  My Mother and her partner owned their house and land as Tenants in Common.

My Mother died in 2017 and her Will leaves her half of the house and land to her 3 children ie myself and my 2 siblings.

Her partner (who we call our Stepfather but he is not legally as they never married) has a Life Interest to live in the property until he dies or remarries.  In due course the other half of the house & land will be left to us 3 siblings as our Mother and her Partner made mutual Wills.  He has no children of his own.

Myself, my siblings and my "Stepfather" are all Executors to my Mother's Will and are holding her half of the house & land in Trust.

I have recently discovered that the Trust needed to be registered with HMRC and I have done this.

There are 3 Titles involved, the house & garden, plus 2 plots of land adjoining the house & garden.  At the Land Registry all three still show that my Mother and her partner own the properties with the restriction meaning they were held as Tenants in Common.

We (the 4 Trustees) would like to tidy this up and transfer my Mother's half us as the Trustees.  We obtained Probate a few months after my Mother passed on.

I have spoken to the Solicitor who dealt with the Wills and my Mother's Probate and she is of the opinion that it is not necessary to inform the Land Registry and do the Transfer but we are not so sure.

Because there are 3 Land Titles the charge for doing this would be a few hundred pounds, which none of can afford to pay.  Is it something we can do ourselves?  And if we do it ourselves do we transfer my Mother's half to the 3 beneficiaries (myself and siblings) or transfer it to the 4 Trustees (myself, siblings and "Stepfather")?

If your mother and her partner really did execute mutual wills as opposed to mirror wills, not sure why you are so concerned.

Why do you think your solicitor is wrong? Have you told her you think that and asked her to explain whatever is worrying you? She could also ensure you understand the consequences of transferring to the 'wrong' people!

If she gives incorrect advice, she has PI cover. The random strangers answering here don't - which is why it is always preferable to rely on proper professional advice where this is available, not least because the professional will access to all the relevant information, including sight of the paperwork. 

getmore4less

the solicitor has not given you some important information.

Solicitor  right that you can leave the register as it is until the life trust is dissolved BUT if that is when the life tent dies and they are the only legal owner you then need a grant to process the property.   


As there were 2 legal owners probate was not needed to deal with the property.

You can have a max of 4 legal owners.

It makes sense for the "StepDad" as the remaining sole owner to change the legal register to include 1 or more of the trustees so that there will still be at least one legal owner should any of you die(avoids needing probate to deal with the property).

As legal ownership is always joint having all 4 of you as legal owners might be the best option.

As the SD has a life interest while alive the beneficial ownership lies with him 100%

A potential issue here is IHT, depending on value of his potential estate he has no transferable or residential nil rate bands, giving a max of £325k.

Too late to look at some mitigation options(DOV) if this is an issue.

As the 3 of you are remaindermen of the trust(50%) and potential owners of the other 50%  do look at what happens should one or more of you  of you die before the SD, your own wills are important.

whizzywoo

@Marcon
Thank you for your reply.

I am not sure of my terminology and it may be Mirror Wills and not Mutual.  There is a clause in each Will saying that they agree not to change them but there is no legal document to this effect outside of the Wills.  Therefore on reflection I think they are Mirror Wills.

I have told the Solicitor that we are concerned and have no wish to store up future trouble for ourselves.  She herself admitted that she is no longer up to date with conveyancing and is going to ask their Conveyancing dept to contact us.  Apparently they are very busy though and it might be some time before they can fit us in!  Meanwhile I am trying to do some due diligence and research.

Yes of course Solicitors would have Indemnity Insurance but we have no wish to be pursuing a claim against them in the future should their advice prove incorrect or incomplete.  They would not have been my first choice of solicitor but SD's family had used them for a couple of generations and they were the choice of my Mother and SD.  I am a little miffed that they did not advise us of the need to register the Trust with HMRC and did not advise my Mother & SD of the potential Inheritance Tax cost of not being married.

The recent advice from her was over the phone and she admitted that she did not have the relevant paperwork in front of her.  She was going on memory and the information I gave her on the phone.  I had explained the situation to her assistant but this had not been passed on to her, so perhaps you can understand my lack of faith.

whizzywoo

@getmore4less -  thank you very much for your reply.

The solicitor did not inform us of needing a grant if and when my SD dies.  It is precisely for this sort of reason that we wish to have our names legally on the Land Registry Title.

We decided to obtain Probate because we assumed this was the correct thing to do and the Solicitor who drew up the Wills did this for us.

My own research has shown me that we can have up to 4 legal owners and we are aware that SD has 100% beneficial interest.  We wouldn't have it any other way.  He loves the house and land and we love him.

I have recently realised the problems about the Inheritance Tax.  The value of the house & garden, and the 2 plots of land is more than likely to exceed the £325,000 band but will probably fall within the £500,000 nil rate residential band.  As we are not legally Stepchildren we will not be able to use the residential band.  We hadn't realised that for IH tax purposes the whole of the value and not just my SD's 50% would be counted for IH.  

It's very unfortunate and had my Mother realised this she would probably have agreed to marry my SD.  She was a great believer in protecting what she had spent a lifetime building up.  But as you say probably too late to do anything about it now and will just have to pay up.  I am going to discuss with my siblings about the need to take Financial Advice of our own.  My own Will is in place but not sure about my siblings.

getmore4less

What is the land used for any way SD could offload without retaining a beneficial interest making it a gift with reservation..

whizzywoo

getmore4less said:

What is the land used for any way SD could offload without retaining a beneficial interest making it a gift with reservation..

That's a possibility we could look into.  Originally parts of the land had commercial greenhouses on it for his market garden business.  Thanks for the suggestion.

One large greenhouse was dismantled and sold off the large plot maybe 15 years ago.  It's now just leisure use - a large vegetable plot, partly grassed and the rest just left to nature.

The other smaller plot still has a commercial greenhouse on it but has just been domestic use since my SD retired about 15 years ago.  We are just beginning to clear out all my Mother's large collection of various ornaments, statues etc, from it.

A gift with reservation would mean that my SD would need to survive 7 years for it to be clear of IH tax ?

getmore4less

whizzywoo said:

getmore4less said:

What is the land used for any way SD could offload without retaining a beneficial interest making it a gift with reservation..

That's a possibility we could look into.  Originally parts of the land had commercial greenhouses on it for his market garden business.  Thanks for the suggestion.

One large greenhouse was dismantled and sold off the large plot maybe 15 years ago.  It's now just leisure use - a large vegetable plot, partly grassed and the rest just left to nature.

The other smaller plot still has a commercial greenhouse on it but has just been domestic use since my SD retired about 15 years ago.  We are just beginning to clear out all my Mother's large collection of various ornaments, statues etc, from it.

A gift with reservation would mean that my SD would need to survive 7 years for it to be clear of IH tax ?

Gift with reservation the clock does not start ticking.

SD would need to give up all beneficial use of the land.

whizzywoo

getmore4less said:

whizzywoo said:

getmore4less said:

What is the land used for any way SD could offload without retaining a beneficial interest making it a gift with reservation..

That's a possibility we could look into.  Originally parts of the land had commercial greenhouses on it for his market garden business.  Thanks for the suggestion.

One large greenhouse was dismantled and sold off the large plot maybe 15 years ago.  It's now just leisure use - a large vegetable plot, partly grassed and the rest just left to nature.

The other smaller plot still has a commercial greenhouse on it but has just been domestic use since my SD retired about 15 years ago.  We are just beginning to clear out all my Mother's large collection of various ornaments, statues etc, from it.

A gift with reservation would mean that my SD would need to survive 7 years for it to be clear of IH tax ?

Gift with reservation the clock does not start ticking.

SD would need to give up all beneficial use of the land.

Oh I see.  We couldn't do that.  He's in his eighties now and spent nearly all his adult life working on that land.  My SD and his father before him rented the land before he and my Mother bought it and he has a deep connection with it.  I won't ask him to give it up and neither will my siblings.  We'll just take the hit rather than do that.

Thanks for all your advice.