Direct Debits

[Deleted User]

stephennetherlee said:

The info I quoted was from the Ofgem FAQs for the public - I understand that if you dig deeper the info is available, but I don't agree it is 'very, very clear' for the public.  This is yet another opacity/complexity in the system which makes it difficult for the population in general to navigate the market.

About 2 paragraphs later on the same page:

"Rates are averages and will vary by region, payment method and meter type. Contact your supplier for personalised information"

Does that count as digging deeper?

dunstonh

stephennetherlee said:

The info I quoted was from the Ofgem FAQs for the public - I understand that if you dig deeper the info is available, but I don't agree it is 'very, very clear' for the public.  This is yet another opacity/complexity in the system which makes it difficult for the population in general to navigate the market.

The problem with quoting it in a monetary figure really doesn't help either.  All the experienced energy people (i.e. those that monitor their usage) don't want to know about the money figure.  Its the price per kWh that matters.   

[Deleted User]

dunstonh said:

stephennetherlee said:

The info I quoted was from the Ofgem FAQs for the public - I understand that if you dig deeper the info is available, but I don't agree it is 'very, very clear' for the public.  This is yet another opacity/complexity in the system which makes it difficult for the population in general to navigate the market.

The problem with quoting it in a monetary figure really doesn't help either.  All the experienced energy people (i.e. those that monitor their usage) don't want to know about the money figure.  Its the price per kWh that matters.   

The cap is actually calculated as a pounds figure though - just how it works.  We convert it to p/kWh but that's not the official calculation.

400ixl

[Deleted User] said:

The cap is actually calculated as a pounds figure though - just how it works.  We convert it to p/kWh but that's not the official calculation.

It is just articulated that way for the layman, the cap itself is the price of the daily cap and the per kWh charge. They then articulated as the prices multiplied by what they consider to be typical consumption (the quantity).

Price is the cap, price x average quantity is the demonstration of average cost.

QrizB

400ixl said:

[Deleted User] said:

The cap is actually calculated as a pounds figure though - just how it works.  We convert it to p/kWh but that's not the official calculation.

It is just articulated that way for the layman, the cap itself is the price of the daily cap and the per kWh charge.

 Ofgem do not publish the cap in those terms. The cap is published as a maximum charge for a zero-kWh user, and a maximum charge for a (3100 or 12000)-kWh user.

stephennetherlee

The 'layman' is in fact the vast majority of the public.  In order to accurately compute what the price cap means for you, you need to know your annual consumption of gas and electricity (the former in kWh, converted from the units measured by your meter), then find the cap for kWh and standing charge appropriate to your region and then the one appropriate to your payment method (these are not easily accessible for most people), then do the arithmetic.  This is the exercise everyone should undertake if they want to make sure their company is getting it right for them, otherwise it will be a matter of trust.  A market which requires people to make such computations seems (to me anyway) obviously deeply flawed.  

PennineAcute

Paying by DD is more cost effective for both consumer and supplier, and therefore you get a discount.  Their system can detect when a payment has be honoured and also when it has not.

Cash or cheque is always more expensive as banks do not like neither.  If you pay by PayPoint or PayZone, they take a small percentage. 

Standing orders can also add to the complexity, as not everyone sets one up correctly - ie, giving their account number as a reference.  This then creates more work for the suppliers trying to work out where the money has come from.

Most importantly, for some suppliers, Direct Debits give them control and the power to dictate how much they are taking.  For that power, they give you a slight discount.

Prepay meters add further complexity and these rates are usually around the cash/cheque rates.

[Deleted User]

400ixl said:

[Deleted User] said:

The cap is actually calculated as a pounds figure though - just how it works.  We convert it to p/kWh but that's not the official calculation.

It is just articulated that way for the layman, the cap itself is the price of the daily cap and the per kWh charge. They then articulated as the prices multiplied by what they consider to be typical consumption (the quantity).

Price is the cap, price x average quantity is the demonstration of average cost.

You've got that completely backwards.  OFGEM publish the cap as a cost in pounds.

Go and find it yourself if you don't believe me.

hint - it's here https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2022-08/Default%20tariff%20cap%20level%20-%201%20October%202022%20-%2031%20December%202022.pdf