Appealing a PCN for free Waitrose car park

skyblues87

Thought I'd start my thread before delving into the mountain of information on here. Just got back from a few weeks away dealing with a family emergency to find I have a court date on 22nd of this month but more urgently a deadline to submit my witness statement of 4pm on Monday. I assume this can be done by email.

Quick summary, it will be a familiar tale. Found out about a CCJ via its appearance on my credit record. Contacted the court and found the solicitor involved, sent them a SAR and received nothing. Successfully went through the process to set aside but unfortunately was refused costs by a very miserable judge. Mistakenly I thought this would reset back to the point of the original PCN being issued and a change to just get rid of the issue paying the lower rate but sadly I now know that isn't the case so off to court I will go.

The brief version is no PCN was ever received; when I discovered the CCJ I sent a SAR to Gladstones Solicitors and had no response; the car park in question is a Waitrose car park with 2 hours free parking and no ticket required. However what I think may have happened is that there is a community centre or something similar which shares the Waitrose access road, my feeling is at the time there was no clear signage that one part of the car park was free and the other required a ticket. Of course years down the line its very difficult to prove what signage was in place at the time, the signs there currently look brand new and the statement from Gladstones makes mention of the shared entrance with Waitrose in a 'this is not an acceptable excuse' kind of way which makes me think it has been successfully used as a defence in the past. 

So presumably my witness statement should just point those facts, no PCN, no response to SAR, shared entrance with unclear signage. 

I'm off to work my way through the information threads. 

Fruitcake

Your SAR should have gone to the PPC, not the solicitors. You are at a disadvantage by not having sight of what they hold about you. Pound to a penny they will have a copy of the NTK they allegedly sent.

What is the name of the PPC please?

Did you complain to the Waitrose store manager/CEO/landowner and your MP? It is still not too late to do this.

Have a look at Google Streetview to see if there are any historic images that may be of use.

Where did the alleged event occur? It may have cropped up here before.

Show us your WS when it is ready.
Show us the claimant's WS if/when you have it.

KeithP

Who is the parking company involved? I.e. who is the Claimant?

Ask yourself why you didn't hear about this Claim earlier.
Does your vehicle's Registration Document(V5c) have an up to date keeper's address on it?

skyblues87

Fruitcake said:

Your SAR should have gone to the PPC, not the solicitors. You are at a disadvantage by not having sight of what they hold about you. Pound to a penny they will have a copy of the NTK they allegedly sent.

What is the name of the PPC please?

Did you complain to the Waitrose store manager/CEO/landowner and your MP? It is still not too late to do this.

Have a look at Google Streetview to see if there are any historic images that may be of use.

Where did the alleged event occur? It may have cropped up here before.

Sorry yes, I did a SAR to both. The PPC replied saying they could not find anything against my name / address, the solicitor was just an auto response saying they would respond in due course but never did. The PPC is LPS (Local Parking Security).

the car park in question is the Rosebird Centre in Stratford, you can see from the below many people have had the same issue:
https://en.parkopedia.co.uk/parking/carpark/rosebird_centre/cv37/stratford_upon_avon/?arriving=202209012100&leaving=202209012300

Sadly there's no historic google street view data, I'm wondering if its worth including the parkopedia comments as part of my witness statement. Evidence of lack of signage or a waste of time that will be ignored?

Not complained to Waitrose or my MP. I'll fire off some emails. I think the issue is despite it not really being clear they're two different car parks operated by two different PPC so Waitrose may have limited scope to cancel any PCN, worth an email though. 

skyblues87

KeithP said:

Who is the parking company involved? I.e. who is the Claimant?

Ask yourself why you didn't hear about this Claim earlier.
Does your vehicle's Registration Document(V5c) have an up to date keeper's address on it?

Parking company is LPS (Local Parking Security). 

My V5 has an up to date keepers address. I did move but a couple of years ago but looking at the paper work I've received they claim to have sent the PCN before I moved and in any case mail forwarding was in place for 12 months after I moved. 

ab2000

Mail forwarding doesn't always work. 

As for sending the claim, all they need is proof of postage and it is deemed to have arrived after 2? Days.

Coupon-mad

the car park in question is the Rosebird Centre in Stratford, you can see from the below many people have had the same issue:

https://en.parkopedia.co.uk/parking/carpark/rosebird_centre/cv37/stratford_upon_avon/?arriving=202209012100&leaving=202209012300

We just had a thread about that place last week, and there are photos on that thread.  Can't recall if it was a claim and witness statement, or just a POPLA appeal, but either way, useful for you to read.

Search the forum for Rosebird.

This is important as there are NO TERMS and NO SIGNS about how to exempt the car when using the Community Centre.  Therefore no breach.

But there is an exempting keypad inside, and the Rosebird Centre website (use it as evidence) states that users do not have to pay and display.  Yet the signs are silent on that, and there is no evidence of where the cars are parked because it's an ANPR automatic PCN scam.

Recent good example WS bundles to copy & adapt are by @aphex007 or @Daiapolon2021

skyblues87

ab2000 said:

Mail forwarding doesn't always work. 

As for sending the claim, all they need is proof of postage and it is deemed to have arrived after 2? Days.

There's no proof of postage in the copy of the paperwork submitted by Gladstones Solicitors, just a PCN with a date that precedes the date I moved out by several months. 

skyblues87

This is important as there are NO TERMS and NO SIGNS about how to exempt the car when using the Community Centre.  Therefore no breach.

But there is an exempting keypad inside, and the Rosebird Centre website (use it as evidence) states that users do not have to pay and display.  Yet the signs are silent on that, and there is no evidence of where the cars are parked because it's an ANPR automatic PCN scam.

Recent good example WS bundles to copy & adapt are by @aphex007 or @Daiapolon2021

So if I'm understanding correctly that works no matter if you were parking for the centre or for Waitrose, just the fact the signage is wrong is enough. That's very useful information.

Coupon-mad

Better for you to be suggesting that the car could have been in any bay and you've seen no evidence either way.  If I were you I'd be stating in the WS that there is no evidence which bay the car was parked in on this unremarkable date x years ago but there are in fact TWO completely different rules and the car park areas are not separately delineated.

So it's quite possible to use the Rosebird free bays and exempt yourself inside the Centre using the keypad advertised on the centre's website, but also to then walk over to shop in Waitrose. Which may well have been the case and it is impossible to recall for sure. That's not disallowed; still no payment is needed to park in that scenario, because the Rosebird exemption is an absolute 'free parking' grant to service users...and there is no caveat to that, nor are there any LPS signs at those bays whatsoever.  All users are captured by ANPR but the signs only mention a 'pay and display' rule.  Irrelevant to those who drive through to a Rosebird bay.  

There is also no evidence of who was driving and no POFA 2012 'keeper liability' because LPS 'notice to keeper' documents do not comply with Schedule 4 and there's no evidence as to who was driving.  UNLESS YOU ALREADY ADMITTED THAT?

(photo of unsigned bays: exhibit 1).

(screenshot of Rosebird website: exhibit 2)

...then of course the other standard exhibits - e.g. Excel v Wilkinson, as seen in the 2022 example WS bundles I already linked you to (username profiles give you their Discussions with one click). 

skyblues87

Many thanks cm, think I've got an idea of everything I need to send in on Monday. Will get everything adapted to the specifics of this case over the weekend.