Working and on Universal Credit? Check you're getting the right amount of UC

Numberwang_2

Penny Paidweekly, had their not been a processing error wouldn’t She have received her usual £1069 and £970 as stated in the opening paragraph?

Numberwang_2

MSE_Rosie said:

Hi Calcotti, 

Thanks for your comments!

We looked at a range of government guidance and spoke to both HMRC and DWP.  In most cases it is the date that DWP receive the information that's used - because it's an automatic system, and a lot of the time it does work in real time (if employers submit the right information at the right time

You mean they blame anyone but themselves! From my experience when querying a UC payment error they blame each other or your employer.

Also is it not easier to put a note on your journal and request a ‘report your earnings from employer’ form.

Albuttr

My daughter gets paid every 4 weeks she has recently been underpaid short for 2 months out of 3 because her employer has been late doing there RTI so making it look like my daughter is getting paid twice in a month. We put a enquiry on her journal twice to be told there is nothing Universal credit can do about so leaving her £100’s of pounds short 

Icequeen1

calcotti said:

Found this useful (but inconclusive in part)
https://revenuebenefits.org.uk/universal-credit/guidance/entitlement-to-uc/rti-and-universal-credit/

Guidance here

https://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2022-0452/118-Real_Time_Information_V11.0.pdf

Says

The calculation of a claimant's earned income for an assessment period is based on the actual date and amount reported as paid by the employer.

Also information here

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-credit-and-employers-frequently-asked-questions/universal-credit-and-employers-frequently-asked-questions

Icequeen1 said:

One thing that i'm not sure is correct in the article is the MR route. I think there is something in the regulations that you have to ask for a decision to be issued where it is an earnings dispute before submitting a MR but i'd need to check the Regs. 

I agree with you that an RTI dispute should be raised and responded to before an MR should be considered.

I think a lot of the gov.uk/DWP links are misleading. There has always been confusion about what date is used. 

On the first link you gave this part is interesting:

The key word in the legislation is ‘received’. Data is transferred from HMRC to DWP 4 times each day (around 3am the first time and 9pm the last time). The system essentially checks to see if any new RTI submissions for UC claimants have arrived with that day as the ‘payment date’ (in box 43 of the FPS submission – this may be the actual payment date or the contractual pay date, depending on how the FPS has been completed). Any late RTI submissions will also be sent over (those where the date in box 43 has already gone by).

The most important point to note is that DWP use the date the RTI information is received by them to determine which assessment period to put the payment into in the first instance,

I wasn't aware it went across 4 times each day but i had seen a case in practice where a small employer filed late and it went to DWP the next day. 

It also makes sense as to why HMRC and DWP keep saying it is important when employers pay early for Christmas that they must use the normal pay date in the box. So it seems from that excerpt that it is both the pay date on the box and the date received by DWP that can have some impact on the overrall outcome. 

tomtom256

The RTI feed has 2 dates within it, date paid (when the employer paid it) and date received (date employer notified HMRC), UC uses the date paid in the calculation of the award, sometimes the date recevied is dated way after the actual payment, which also causes issues, as it doesn't get picked up on the check, so normally causes an OP as it gets ignored at the end of following AP, owing to the date paid being in the previous AP.

UC automatically receives this data overnight on the last day of the AP. Tends to hit the claim between 01:00 and 03:00 am. Unless there has been a data mismatch, in which case it doesn't get received at all.

Icequeen1

tomtom256 said:

The RTI feed has 2 dates within it, date paid (when the employer paid it) and date received (date employer notified HMRC), UC uses the date paid in the calculation of the award, sometimes the date recevied is dated way after the actual payment, which also causes issues, as it doesn't get picked up on the check, so normally causes an OP as it gets ignored at the end of following AP, owing to the date paid being in the previous AP.

UC automatically receives this data overnight on the last day of the AP. Tends to hit the claim between 01:00 and 03:00 am. Unless there has been a data mismatch, in which case it doesn't get received at all.

The UC system receives the data on the last day of the AP from the DWP RTE system, not from HMRC. The data from HMRC is transferred to DWP RTE system multiple times every day. UC don't use the date paid in the calculation, as explained above (although often the date they get the info and the date paid is the same)

tomtom256

The data actally comes via CIS or Searchlight as the now call it and can be viewed by any member of staff in the jobcentre. I deal with it day in and day out and regulary see issues.

CIS is a national database that all of the government uses, including local authorities and the RTE feed, is transferred into this and then downloaded by any party that has set an interest within it.

The timings of the check also show on the DWP side of the claim and you can see the data that has been dowloaded, as do any errors or mismatches, when the actual check is conducted, the timestamp is normally as per my previous post.

From what I see, the data in CIS is rarely the same for both dates, which causes major issues, when we have to raise an RTI dispute or check anything.

NedS

Icequeen1 said:

calcotti said:

Found this useful (but inconclusive in part)
https://revenuebenefits.org.uk/universal-credit/guidance/entitlement-to-uc/rti-and-universal-credit/

Guidance here

https://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2022-0452/118-Real_Time_Information_V11.0.pdf

Says

The calculation of a claimant's earned income for an assessment period is based on the actual date and amount reported as paid by the employer.

Also information here

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-credit-and-employers-frequently-asked-questions/universal-credit-and-employers-frequently-asked-questions

Icequeen1 said:

One thing that i'm not sure is correct in the article is the MR route. I think there is something in the regulations that you have to ask for a decision to be issued where it is an earnings dispute before submitting a MR but i'd need to check the Regs. 

I agree with you that an RTI dispute should be raised and responded to before an MR should be considered.

I think a lot of the gov.uk/DWP links are misleading. There has always been confusion about what date is used. 

On the first link you gave this part is interesting:

The key word in the legislation is ‘received’. Data is transferred from HMRC to DWP 4 times each day (around 3am the first time and 9pm the last time). The system essentially checks to see if any new RTI submissions for UC claimants have arrived with that day as the ‘payment date’ (in box 43 of the FPS submission – this may be the actual payment date or the contractual pay date, depending on how the FPS has been completed). Any late RTI submissions will also be sent over (those where the date in box 43 has already gone by).

The most important point to note is that DWP use the date the RTI information is received by them to determine which assessment period to put the payment into in the first instance,

I wasn't aware it went across 4 times each day but i had seen a case in practice where a small employer filed late and it went to DWP the next day. 

It also makes sense as to why HMRC and DWP keep saying it is important when employers pay early for Christmas that they must use the normal pay date in the box. So it seems from that excerpt that it is both the pay date on the box and the date received by DWP that can have some impact on the overrall outcome. 

I don't think this is completely correct, and I agree with @tomtom256. The sentence in bold above would only apply in certain circumstances, (e.g late submissions) whereby the AP end date has already passed and the earnings would then initially be considered the next AP (but could be manually corrected if the claimant reported that their earnings had not been taken into account - when does that ever happen!!)

For example, my employer pays me on (or before) the last day of every month, and I receive that payment on the last banking day of every month (that's the date I receive my salary). Last month my employer completed their payroll and reported to HMRC on 22/7/2022, I was paid (received the cash) on Friday 29/7/2022 and my employer reported the contractual date of payment as Sunday 31/7/2022. UC treated my earnings as received on 31/7/2022 as that is what was in the payment date box. UC do not treat my payment as dated 22/7/2022, the date they received the information.

Most issues are caused where employers report late - i.e, HMRC receive the information AFTER the pay date. This causes issues for UC if the report is received AFTER the end of the AP in which the payment was received. In such cases the employer should be fined for late reporting.

When I claimed UC, I deliberately claimed (having moved from Tax Credits) mid-month to ensure my AP end date was well away from any potential end of month pay dates.

calcotti

NedS said:Most issues are caused where employers report late - i.e, HMRC receive the information AFTER the pay date. This causes issues for UC if the report is received AFTER the end of the AP in which the payment was received. In such cases the employer should be fined for late reporting.

This does seem to be key problem area - which is what MSE have highlighted. Has been very useful to see all the comments.

Icequeen1

NedS said:

Icequeen1 said:

calcotti said:

Found this useful (but inconclusive in part)
https://revenuebenefits.org.uk/universal-credit/guidance/entitlement-to-uc/rti-and-universal-credit/

Guidance here

https://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2022-0452/118-Real_Time_Information_V11.0.pdf

Says

The calculation of a claimant's earned income for an assessment period is based on the actual date and amount reported as paid by the employer.

Also information here

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-credit-and-employers-frequently-asked-questions/universal-credit-and-employers-frequently-asked-questions

Icequeen1 said:

One thing that i'm not sure is correct in the article is the MR route. I think there is something in the regulations that you have to ask for a decision to be issued where it is an earnings dispute before submitting a MR but i'd need to check the Regs. 

I agree with you that an RTI dispute should be raised and responded to before an MR should be considered.

I think a lot of the gov.uk/DWP links are misleading. There has always been confusion about what date is used. 

On the first link you gave this part is interesting:

The key word in the legislation is ‘received’. Data is transferred from HMRC to DWP 4 times each day (around 3am the first time and 9pm the last time). The system essentially checks to see if any new RTI submissions for UC claimants have arrived with that day as the ‘payment date’ (in box 43 of the FPS submission – this may be the actual payment date or the contractual pay date, depending on how the FPS has been completed). Any late RTI submissions will also be sent over (those where the date in box 43 has already gone by).

The most important point to note is that DWP use the date the RTI information is received by them to determine which assessment period to put the payment into in the first instance,

I wasn't aware it went across 4 times each day but i had seen a case in practice where a small employer filed late and it went to DWP the next day. 

It also makes sense as to why HMRC and DWP keep saying it is important when employers pay early for Christmas that they must use the normal pay date in the box. So it seems from that excerpt that it is both the pay date on the box and the date received by DWP that can have some impact on the overrall outcome. 

I don't think this is completely correct, and I agree with @tomtom256. The sentence in bold above would only apply in certain circumstances, (e.g late submissions) whereby the AP end date has already passed and the earnings would then initially be considered the next AP (but could be manually corrected if the claimant reported that their earnings had not been taken into account - when does that ever happen!!)

For example, my employer pays me on (or before) the last day of every month, and I receive that payment on the last banking day of every month (that's the date I receive my salary). Last month my employer completed their payroll and reported to HMRC on 22/7/2022, I was paid (received the cash) on Friday 29/7/2022 and my employer reported the contractual date of payment as Sunday 31/7/2022. UC treated my earnings as received on 31/7/2022 as that is what was in the payment date box. UC do not treat my payment as dated 22/7/2022, the date they received the information.

Most issues are caused where employers report late - i.e, HMRC receive the information AFTER the pay date. This causes issues for UC if the report is received AFTER the end of the AP in which the payment was received. In such cases the employer should be fined for late reporting.

When I claimed UC, I deliberately claimed (having moved from Tax Credits) mid-month to ensure my AP end date was well away from any potential end of month pay dates.

I agree, but for a different reason. In your example, DWP wouldn't receive the info until 31/7. As i said in a previous post it goes from the HMRC system to the DWP RTE system (which is not the same as Tomtom is talking about) daily based on the date in the payment box. In most cases the payment date box and the date DWP receive the info will be the same, but not in every case. For example a case I saw where a small employer did their submission to HMRC really late at night and it didn't go to DWP until the next day which coincided with a start of a new assessment period. The payment date was 27/7, the submission was made to HMRC on 27/7 but it went to DWP on 28/7 and was used by DWP in the assessment period starting on 28/7. 

Tomtom is talking about the transfer of info between the DWP RTE system and the UC system which happens at the end of the AP.

see also https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-credit-and-employers-frequently-asked-questions/universal-credit-and-employers-frequently-asked-questions#:~:text=HMRC sends relevant data on,next day, at the latest.

which confirms that

HMRC sends relevant data on Universal Credit claimants to DWP on a daily basis (4 times a day). This means the information supplied will be with DWP on the same day or on the next day, at the latest.