Neighbour encroaching my garden

Duckdoodles

Hello, after clearing my garden recently (it's a buy to let and got overgrown) I discovered that my neighbour has fenced off a box about 1m squared at the end of my garden and merged it with hers. She keeps her compost heap in it.

I sent her a text message asking about it mentioning that my deed shows a rectangular garden with no squares cut off but she just sent a passive kind of reply about it always having been like that for decades. I bought the place 5 years ago. There used to be a tree there so while I was staying there briefly I didn't notice it.

 Is there anything I can do to get the square back? I am bewildered how she would think that just fencing off someone else's garden like that would be okay. Thank you. 

Rosa_Damascena

"Decades". Does adverse possession apply?

Bendy_House

Hi 'doodles.

You have a copy of your deeds, and it shows a rectangular garden? It's worth getting a copy of the neighb's too, tobesuretobesure. But almost certainly it'll show a rectangle too - just like all the other neighbouring houses. (LandRegistry - around a £iver)

You get on ok with this neighb - you have their phone number? And, how important is this to you - would it be an 'issue' if you fell out?

Oookkaaaayyyy...

That was/is your land - almost certainly. At some point, most likely because it was completely hidden by the tree, this (or an earlier?) neighb thought it would be a useful extra piece of storage land for the compost heap - nice.

Think about that for a moment. Someone was in their garden, kept noticing that the corner of the neighbouring garden was overgrown, and kept thinking about it... One day, they acted. They actually added a bit of fence to section off an area of someone else's land, for their own purpose. That makes me go 'wow'.

In theory, there is that potential issue of 'adverse possession', but in practice, it's not as simple as that. For a start, the APer would need to prove when they 'took possession', and that they used it exclusively since then, and without the permission of the rightful owner. Even that isn't enough. They'd now need to actually act on this, to start the process of the claim.

They certainly haven't done this in more recent years - I don't know exactly how long, a decade or so? - since the Land Registry would then contact the rightful owner to essentially ask "Is this ok with you...?!"

And, if the neighb made a legitimate AP claim before these more recent changes in the rools, then surely their deeds will have been updated to show this extra piece of land? If it hasn't, it ain't.

So, I'd get a copy of their deeds.

I'd also do a Google Earth/Maps 'historic' search on your land - you will almost certainly find a series of images going back, ooh, 20 years or so. Can you see this 'step'? If so, when did it happen? Compare it with the current Google view - can you see it on that? If you can, then there's a good chance you'll get a good idea when this landgrab happened. But if all you can see is a tree canopy, then perhaps not (look for winter shots!)

So, do as much research as you can, to try and build up a picture.

If clear info comes up of a recentish 'grab', then they haven't a chance of AP so you can threaten 'legal', especially if you have LegProt on your house insurance.

If it's woolly, and you just cannot tell when they grabbed it, then it's your call. If I were being fobbed off with that sort of dismissive reply, then I'd simply remove that fence, place it on their land, and reinstate a boundary fence in the correct position. I'd then fork all that compost over the fence on to their land. I'd also have a discrete recorder with me...

If/when they interject, you remain utterly calm, matter-of-fact, and state summat like "I'm just sorting out this section of incorrect fencing - the new piece will be exactly where it should be, on the correct border."

Whatever they say to this, you just smile, chuckle, whatevs, and repeat repeat repeat.

Any claims of "It has always been!", you counter with "Clearly it has not - so don't be silly."

"It's ours! Adverse possession!". "Uh-huh - then show me your legal possession documents for it"

And any threat by them to redo the fence as they had it, you tell them, "You do NOT have permission to come on to my land - I trust that's clear? And if you move MY fence, that is criminal property damage - and I WILL call the police. Is THAT clear?"

"You touched OUR fence!" "Only to replace it back on your land - where it belongs."

Or whatever version that you wish to do.

Unpleasant situation - but the neighb is in the wrong. Don't lose track of that. YOU wouldn't DREAM of doing such a thing. Don't lose track of that, either - these folk are arrogant, deluded, and entitled. Yuck.

It's awkward to know the best approach. If you are too 'careful' - if you insist in going the 'correct' legal route from the off, it can bog down with accusation and counter-accusation, and your solicitor might pull you aside and ask if you really want to continue for such a minor bit of land. So, unpleasant as it may seem to you, often the best way to handle it is to make it a fait accompli - you physically sort it first, ideally when they cannot intervene, and then you TELL them the facts of life. They then have the choice of accepting it, or now having to physically act themselves - trying to move the boundary again - and this would definitely be actionable. It would be demonstrably the wrong thing for them to do. If they truly feel they have a case, then they'd need to go 'legal' with it. I'd suggest they haven't a chance, because they'd need to PROVE all the factors required - duration, and sole use for starters. 

That's my angle - you'd need to be happy with it! There's two reasons to sort this. One is that it's the right thing to do. This is a bludy liberty - how DARE they?! And the other is, when you come to sell, it'll likely be a 'mare. Even in the highly remote chance this neighb can make their possession of it legal, and the new owner of your property buys in that knowledge, it would take a resolute person to not feel truly p'ed-off living next to such an entitled and arrogant neigbour. Ie, this will almost certainly remain an issue, whether legalised by your neighbour or not. Every time the new owner goes down to their garden, they stare at that square and think, "What a complete bunch of flamin' 'wits."

grumbler

Rosa_Damascena said:

"Decades". Does adverse possession apply?

AFAIK, adverse possession doesn't work anymore.

Duckdoodles

Dear Bendy House,

Thank you so much for your advice. My suspicion is that's exactly how her thought process went sadly. 

Yes, my deed shows rectangular. My house has a side entrance and it's that extra bit of width that she's taken the corner off. Their house's garden boundary which shows on my deed also looks rectangular (a bit angled and wider on sides). My deed is about 6 years old though, so I will order the deed for her house specifically. 

No, I don't have a relationship with her I'm keen to maintain, although I would like to keep things as amicable as possible given I'll have to live next to her as soon as soon as I can move back in. We have each other's numbers, because she was complaining about my ivy growing into her garden. I agreed root out anything that was originating from my garden. That's how I discovered the apparent land-grab. 

I had a look on google and as you guessed rightly, the foliage covers a lot, but not actually all of it, because her side doesn't have much. It's fuzzy but you can see her compost box sits  mostly on my side of where the rest of my fence is. I didn't know you could look at historical records and so I didn't look in winter either. I have just downloaded it to my pc.

One thing I did notice is that on the deed, there's supposed to be a small alleyway that runs down the side of her garden, but the google map images shows that she's fenced it in. That's not my concern of course, but it made me wonder whether perhaps the council agreed to it. They wouldn't have agreed to give over (my) private land, though, I don't think. Is it worth me calling the land/planning permission department to check? She also said there used to be an alleyway at the back of the houses which the council gave over to the owners years ago and that square box  she has taken, had been fenced off into her section from back then. 

I will check my buildings insurance (it's landlords insurance) to see if it has the LegProt you mentioned.

So my whole plan of action for this week is so far is: 

1. Order the deed to her house
2. Use google maps to research when land grab began 
3. Check if I have LegProt 

You suggestion about just taking her fences down and correcting my fencing is a good one I think. Only problem is it's a huge wooden compost box that partly sits on her side of her fence so I wouldn't be able to remove it without it spewing into her garden too. Do you think once I have the evidence, I can write her a letter, include the images and deeds and ask her to remove her compost heap and say I'll be having the fencing corrected by a given month so if it isn't done by then, I'll have the workmen remove it instead?
 
I really appreciate your advice. I'll let you know how I get on. 

Duckdoodles 

DRP

download the google earth app for desktop (mac or pc) and you can rewind the map view to look at views back to 1985 (at least in my area you can).

https://www.google.com/intl/en_in/earth/versions/

Bendy_House

Duck, add to your research that alleyway... See if there's any reference to it - say as a Right-of-Way - on her deeds. If there is, ie it is ONLY a RoW, then that's a cracking lever to use.

It'll then become, "Thanks for asking me to clear my land, as I've discovered you've been trespassing on part of it. I also notice you've taken over an alleyway that is not yours. I'm not too concerned about the alley - not sure if I should report it or not - but I DO insist you remove all your property off my land. You have until the Xth. Ok?"

And you record this.

You situation isn't as clear in my head now that you've added the alleyway bit, so any chance of a sketch, or a pic of your deeds map?

Bendy_House

Since you'll be moving back in, it is more important than before that she understands where the meta and literal line is drawn.

I'll EMPHASISE, tho' - you always be calm, civil, matter-of-fact. You are in the right, they in the wrong. Keep it that way. High moral ground and all that...

grumbler

Duckdoodles said:

So my whole plan of action for this week is so far is: 

1. Order the deed to her house
2. Use google maps to research when land grab began 
3. Check if I have LegProt 

If her title plan wasn't changed, the time doesn't matter.

Bendy_House

grumbler said:

Duckdoodles said:

So my whole plan of action for this week is so far is: 

1. Order the deed to her house
2. Use google maps to research when land grab began 
3. Check if I have LegProt 

If her title plan wasn't changed, the time doesn't matter.

It'll be interesting, tho'! :-)

Ducks, see if there's any reference to the alleyway on YOUR deeds too - do YOU have a RoW over it?

If 'yes', then I WOULD pursue this as well. It would separate your and her gardens, wouldn't it? What a bonus!

Anyhoo, come back with what you find, please, and also add your deeds map if you don't mind?

Duckdoodles

Haha yes I was thinking it would be useful leverage but keep feeling guilty! Okay, I think you're right about the firm approach. 

I have attached some pics. Hope they make sense. The red rectangle is mine. the bottom left house is hers. And next to it, what I think is meant to be an alley way.