Question about keeper vs registered keeper please!

PCNPain1199

Hi everyone,

Firstly I just want to acknowledge the amazing amount of collective knowledge, support, and hard work that I've discovered on this board today - you're all amazing

I've read through the newbies thread and familiarised myself with POFA 2012 but I've got a quick question about my maths for the notice timeframe, and one about keeper vs registered keeper. The background is that my partner is the registered keeper of our car, and we are both named drivers. We received a PCN through the post which was addressed to them - a NTK regarding an ANPR failure to pay for parking, no windscreen ticket was provided. It is from an IPC company. They have not outright alleged keeper liability under POFA or referred to POFA in name, though the NTK meets the criteria of Schedule 4 in terms of the information the letter contains, except it was delivered outside of the 14 day window. We will be sending the template initial appeal letter from the newbie thread, while also referring to the fact that the NTK is non-compliant with POFA and that they therefore cannot transfer liability to the keeper as the notice was not given within the relevant period of 14 days, but I'd like to check these things first:

1. Can somebody just double check my maths here on this please: if the period of parking was 21/07/2022 (day 0), then the 14 day period for the NTK to be sent under POFA begins on 22/07/2022 (day 1), and ends on 04/08/2022 (day 14) If the company notes that the date of issue of the notice was 03/08/2022 (day 13) then with the 2 day period for post that would mean that the NTK would have been delivered/"given" on 05/08/2022 (day 15) - is that all correct? The NTK was not given within the specified relevant period, right? I have changed the dates, but it is the same in terms of there being no bank holidays in either the 14 day window or the 2 day postage window.

2. I am much more savvy with things like this than my partner is, and we would both prefer for it to be me who deals with the situation, particularly if it came to a county court (which seems likely as they're an IPC company and we can't appeal through POPLA if this first appeal is rejected). I'm aware that POFA makes a distinction between the "keeper" and the "registered keeper", but the NTK invites the "registered keeper" to pay the charge or to notify them of the driver, and the letter is of course addressed to them as well. Am I able to email the PPC from my email address and identify myself as the keeper during the specified time period (but not as the driver of course) so that I receive the emails and letters etc? If so, should I confirm that the PCN was sent to my partner, the registered keeper, but explain that I was the keeper? I saw the linked post by The Slithy Tove (Providing information on Driver — MoneySavingExpert Forum) which talks about this a little bit, kind of, and a post by Coupon-mad (PCN from CPMS in Manchester - Page 2 — MoneySavingExpert Forum) which refers to a poster calling themselves the day-to-day keeper, but nothing definitive on this despite my attempts at searching.

Thanks so much for any help you can offer.

Coupon-mad

If you were driving your partner should just name you as the driver (and give your address even if the same as theirs) as part of the appeal.

I did that for someone when helping with a friend's appeal v an IPC firm and the idiots sent the rejection letter to the keeper! This meant he could then appeal to the IAS including the indisputable fact that he couldn't be held liable in law because he'd transferred liability.  The PPC folded!

Don't contact them yourself, saying that you are the keeper. They will rightly ignore you, as you are a third party.

Transfer of liability MUST come from the rk.

Can somebody just double check my maths here on this please: if the period of parking was 21/07/2022 (day 0), then the 14 day period for the NTK to be sent under POFA begins on 22/07/2022 (day 1), and ends on 04/08/2022 (day 14).

Yes.

Umkomaas

The RK must deal with this initially, they can attempt to inform the PPC that you are the day-to-day keeper. Chances are the PPC won't understand the nuance, either ignore the notification or make the assumption that you are the driver.  But these finer arguments are not ones that will cut any ice with the PPC, the IPC or the IAS - only a Judge might be persuaded. 

I have changed the dates, but it is the same in terms of there being no bank holidays in either the 14 day window or the 2 day postage window.

Why complicate it?  Give us the straight dates if you want a definitive answer. Weekends can actually assist too as well as Bank Holidays in the 'postage window'.

Let's see a redacted copy of the NtK (both sides) but leave all dates showing, then we're not guessing. 

PCNPain1199

Wow that was fast, thanks for the quick replies both of you.

Coupon-Mad - We had hoped and planned for her to contact them initially, and then transfer the whole situation to me as keeper. I'm a bit confused at your suggestion of my partner naming me as the driver. I thought rule number one of appealing, particularly non-FOPA appeals, was to refuse to identify a driver? 

Umkomaas - I'd altered the dates to avoid giving any personally identifiable information. I know that it would mean that only the PPC would be able to identify us, but I'd seen other posts suggesting that people avoid giving exact dates for this reason. I figured that this specific PPC might not have receive many appeals re: PCNs on that specific date, and particularly not where the appeals referred to a NTK being received 1 day later than the relevant period. Perhaps I'm being too paranoid?

In terms of the keeper/registered keeper stuff, it would be a true statement - my partner is the owner and registered keeper, and also the main driver, but I could be classed as the keeper during the time when the PCN happened though I was not the driver. I understand the concern about them assuming that I was the driver though, and it's a shame to hear that they wouldn't care to make the distinction between registered keeper and keeper. My partner is not the type to appeal these kinds of things, and certainly would not want to have to sit before or speak to a judge - they would prefer to just pay these kinds of things quickly to pay the lower amount and not have the stress and will probably choose to do so rather than appeal if it will fall on them. If my partner responds and appeals as the registered keeper, using the template and the additions I've drafted, then it seems as though there'd be no way for me to take on the brunt of whatever comes next? They are happy to transfer the liability to me, and I am as well, but not the liability as being the driver, just the keeper.

Do you both think that it wouldn't work if my partner appealed using the template and the POFA non-compliance aspect, and also tried to identify me as keeper (but not driver) around the time of the parking period and direct further correspondence to me?

Coupon-mad

Nope, naming you as driver isn't a problem, if your partner isn't up for fighting this but you are.

Far better to try that now (forget the POFA) and see how the dumb money-crazy PPC muck it up.

Arguing POFA stuff at the IAS is like banging your head against a brick wall.  And if in the long run, you will be the stronger Defendant, why not take up that mantle now?

That was the case with my friends (driver more robust as a person). I told them that I suspected the idiot IPC firm would send the rejection letter to the keeper.  Idiot PPC played right into our hands by responding to the keeper!  IAS appeal nailed it and they gave up before it was even looked at.

Obviously, your partner only names you as the driver within a longer appeal (about crap signage or whatever) if you really were! Your name and address must be provided but plonk it within a longer appeal and hope the PPC don't read it.

Worst case: the PPC read it properly and transfer liability to you, which is what you want later on, anyway.

Umkomaas

Far too complicated for most PPCs to understand. Even if the NtK is non compliant with PoFA, it will not result in a cancellation - guaranteed. PPCs are far too busy issuing tickets like confetti to read the forum and to match up the real dates of your situation and marry them to one of their tickets at somewhere in the country. 

On the day in question, are you aware that an average of over 24,500 will have been issued. Yes, that's correct twenty four and a half thousand private parking tickets. No chance of any of the idiots linking your dates to a parking event in a car park they are infesting somewhere wherever.

Perhaps I'm being too paranoid?

Perhaps I tend to agree. 

Just give us the name of the parking firm (I'll guarantee they will have been reported here hundreds of times, and nothing untoward has occurred as a result) and we can give you much more specific and targeted advice, otherwise we are dancing around trying to look through a window with the curtains closed.