Brother in Hospital.

Hello all, 

I have an older brother (87) that is a hoarder of books, records, etc. They are all over and up to the ceiling, including the bath. I have been helping him for many years with getting food, sorting out doctors, etc, etc. We tried to help with the hoarding, but happy how he was. He owns the house, hates spending money on anything and if some biscuits go up by 5p that was it, he would not buy again. 

In the past week, he has been put into hospital because he has a fallen at the top of the stairs, and sadly we didn't know till shopping day. We think he has been there for a good number of days and lucky to be alive. He is looking a lot better now, but his mind isn't great and not making that much sense. Doctor also seem worried about this. He can also not walk that well before, and not sure how he will do now.  

He doesn't have any Will or Lasting Power of Attorney in place. We are looking at the NHS Continuing Healthcare for him, but every person we talk to says that they want him out of the hospital, and they can do this test at a later date, this is going against everything I have read online. Social workers bamboozled us on the first day of him going to into hospital, asked for information and said he won't be able to go back home because it's unsafe for him and others. I have not signed anything. Consultant and nurses have all asked if we have Lasting Power of Attorney and if he has over £23K.

I am looking for any pointer, help and best people to talk to? Has anyone had the same experience? What happens to his house and his stuff if his is put in a home? I really don't want someone just go round a say that we are going to pay £XXXX from my brother's money, to get rid of it. I would clear it myself (with help) if I was allowed (the house is the same house I grew up in and has some items of my mothers, etc). Do I have any rights over my brother care and help him get  NHS Continuing Healthcare? 

«1

Comments

  • RAS
    RAS Posts: 32,650 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Anniversary First Post
    Informally, if you can get in the house, please try and find any evidence of his finances.

    My own experience was that hospitals would discharge our relative at the drop of a hat. Any visitor would be asked if they could "look after" them and they'd be discharged into the visitor's care. Who'd take them home and ring me to tell me.

    On the other hand, social services are dead keen on finding a home, as long as it's funded, which it can be if he has a house.

    I'd also suggest downloading the LPA paperwork and if the doctors think he is capable of making the decision in a few days, get it sorted. You may need to start that conversation with him now, explaining that you need to help sort out bills etc now.

    If he's been on the floor and dehydrated, it will take some days to recover. Do check if he's also got a UTI and he's actually getting enough fluid and food.
    The person who has not made a mistake, has made nothing
  • comeandgo
    comeandgo Posts: 5,742 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    Does your brother have any children or a wife anywhere?
  • comeandgo
    comeandgo Posts: 5,742 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    Does your brother have any children or a wife anywhere?
  • elsien
    elsien Posts: 32,707 Forumite
    Name Dropper Photogenic First Anniversary First Post
    edited 13 August 2022 at 11:49AM
    It is normal practice for people where there are concerns about safe discharge to go to a short term bed for 4 weeks and for the CHC assessment for health funding to be done in the care home. This is both to free up hospital beds but also because the longer he stays in hospital the more of an infection risk there is. Going to the assessment bed does not mean he won’t be able to go home in due course. Once the assessment is done that will identify his support needs and whether health or the local authority are primarily responsible for taking things forwards. 

    It’s also possible that even though he’s confused now that confusion may lift over time. I do know someone who left Hospital very confused and after a few months in the care home regained capacity. 
    It is far too early to be making decisions about his house and his property.  If he stays confused that would be a best interest decision with the decision maker being either health or a social worker with input from yourselves if there isn’t a power-of-attorney.  With the presumption of looking at the least restrictive option first which would generally be properly looking at whether to return home is possible with support. It would also need an application to the court of protection for a deputy ship to sort out his house and his finances if he lacks capacity and can’t make an LPA. You don’t have the legal authority to sign or consent to anything on his behalf.
     If anyone asks you for a third-party top up at any point then you have the right to refuse. There is no obligation whatsoever for you to be paying anything on his behalf. 
     But at the moment just take it one step at a time I don’t think anyone is trying to bamboozle you. this is how the system works. And he does need time to recover and if possible get back to his best self. The care home is a temporary decision pending all the assessments and proper decision-making. 

    ETA - if he has capacity then it’s up to him who he involves in the assessments. If he doesn’t then as his primary support you should be involved, if you want to be. 
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
  • macman
    macman Posts: 53,098 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
    Very unlikely that you would be able to get an LPA now if his mental condition is as you describe.
    Are you the next of kin? If so, you may get some input on his health care, but you have no rights over his finances or property.
    Without his authority you have no right to even enter the property, let alone to start clearing it.
    No free lunch, and no free laptop ;)
  • IreneMot
    IreneMot Posts: 46 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 13 August 2022 at 2:11PM
    RAS said:
    Informally, if you can get in the house, please try and find any evidence of his finances.

    My own experience was that hospitals would discharge our relative at the drop of a hat. Any visitor would be asked if they could "look after" them and they'd be discharged into the visitor's care. Who'd take them home and ring me to tell me.

    On the other hand, social services are dead keen on finding a home, as long as it's funded, which it can be if he has a house.

    I'd also suggest downloading the LPA paperwork and if the doctors think he is capable of making the decision in a few days, get it sorted. You may need to start that conversation with him now, explaining that you need to help sort out bills etc now.

    If he's been on the floor and dehydrated, it will take some days to recover. Do check if he's also got a UTI and he's actually getting enough fluid and food.
    Thank you for your reply. Yes, we still have access to the house and the police gave me the keys. I have only taken what the nurse's have asked for e.g. razors, teeth, etc. I have also done some cleaning where he has fallen, empty fridge, etc.

    His health looks better than he came in. He won't be eating solid anytime soon. He as not tried to walk yet. 
    comeandgo said:
    Does your brother have any children or a wife anywhere?
    No other family. 

    elsien said:
    It is normal practice for people where there are concerns about safe discharge to go to a short term bed for 4 weeks and for the CHC assessment for health funding to be done in the care home. This is both to free up hospital beds but also because the longer he stays in hospital the more of an infection risk there is. Going to the assessment bed does not mean he won’t be able to go home in due course. Once the assessment is done that will identify his support needs and whether health or the local authority are primarily responsible for taking things forwards. 

    It’s also possible that even though he’s confused now that confusion may lift over time. I do know someone who left Hospital very confused and after a few months in the care home regained capacity. 
    It is far too early to be making decisions about his house and his property.  If he stays confused that would be a best interest decision with the decision maker being either health or a social worker with input from yourselves if there isn’t a power-of-attorney.  With the presumption of looking at the least restrictive option first which would generally be properly looking at whether to return home is possible with support. It would also need an application to the court of protection for a deputy ship to sort out his house and his finances if he lacks capacity and can’t make an LPA. You don’t have the legal authority to sign or consent to anything on his behalf.
     If anyone asks you for a third-party top up at any point then you have the right to refuse. There is no obligation whatsoever for you to be paying anything on his behalf. 
     But at the moment just take it one step at a time I don’t think anyone is trying to bamboozle you. this is how the system works. And he does need time to recover and if possible get back to his best self. The care home is a temporary decision pending all the assessments and proper decision-making. 

    ETA - if he has capacity then it’s up to him who he involves in the assessments. If he doesn’t then as his primary support you should be involved, if you want to be. 
    Thank you for the information. He did hit his head and has a bad bruising to the eye. Yes, it all takes time to recovery, and hopefully he will. I am just trying to get up to date with everything. 

    macman said:
    Very unlikely that you would be able to get an LPA now if his mental condition is as you describe.
    Are you the next of kin? If so, you may get some input on his health care, but you have no rights over his finances or property.
    Without his authority you have no right to even enter the property, let alone to start clearing it.
    Okay, thank you for the information. Very sickening if they get rid of family photos, etc. 

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    It is 100% he won't be going back to his house from what has been said and the state of the house. No heating, no bath, no downstairs bathroom, gaps in windows, etc, etc, etc. 
  • RAS
    RAS Posts: 32,650 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Anniversary First Post
    You need to ASK his consultant if they think he has the mental capacity to do an LPA. Not assume that he hasn't.

    And for many people, it is a fluctuating thing. So he may be not at his best first thing in the morning, or bright then and knackered by 4pm. Or have good days and bad days.

    The person who has not made a mistake, has made nothing
  • Mojisola
    Mojisola Posts: 35,557 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
    IreneMot said:
    Okay, thank you for the information. Very sickening if they get rid of family photos, etc.
    While strict adherence to the law would mean that you shouldn't take anything from the house, in reality, there is nothing to be lost in taking items of sentimental value.  Keep a record of them - if some jobs-worth demands the return of things of no value like family photos, get them all copied and then return the originals.
  • IreneMot
    IreneMot Posts: 46 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    RAS said:
    You need to ASK his consultant if they think he has the mental capacity to do an LPA. Not assume that he hasn't.

    And for many people, it is a fluctuating thing. So he may be not at his best first thing in the morning, or bright then and knackered by 4pm. Or have good days and bad days.

    We have asked about his mental state and the consultant has rung me 3 times to see if this is normal or was like this before. Time will tell to see how he recovers. He is going on about stuff that about 20 years ago at the moment, and think he has been on a train the other day. 
    Mojisola said:
    IreneMot said:
    Okay, thank you for the information. Very sickening if they get rid of family photos, etc.
    While strict adherence to the law would mean that you shouldn't take anything from the house, in reality, there is nothing to be lost in taking items of sentimental value.  Keep a record of them - if some jobs-worth demands the return of things of no value like family photos, get them all copied and then return the originals.
    Okay, thank you. I will keep that in mind at the moment and see how he gets on first. 
  • lr1277
    lr1277 Posts: 1,681 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary Combo Breaker
    edited 13 August 2022 at 3:46PM
    My dad has been in and out of hospital since 2017 and he is a similar age to your brother.
    What dad’s doctor has told us that other than the cause for admission, the biggest risk to dad is a hospital acquired infection. Getting one of these can make any condition worse or even lead to death. So care at home is the best if it can be organised.
    A suitable care home may also work in reducing infection acquisition.
    So getting your brother out of hospital is a good thing as long as a suitable place is found.
    We are at a stage where an infection initially shows as confusion and/or mobility problems. Then dad has a fall and sometimes an ambulance is called. They can take dad to hospital but will also agree to dad staying at home as long as the carer thinks they can cope. Going to hospital may mean another infection is acquired and so on.

    After a recent stay in hospital, dad got 4 weeks support from social services which included equipment for the house and a few physio visits. After 4 weeks the support was stopped. However we still have the equipment and can keep it whilst needed.

    HTH
Meet your Ambassadors

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 343.2K Banking & Borrowing
  • 250.1K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 449.7K Spending & Discounts
  • 235.2K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 608K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 173K Life & Family
  • 247.9K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 15.9K Discuss & Feedback
  • 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards