Cases lost in County Court

FlaatusGoat

Sadly, one of my friends recently completely lost their in their local county court. Their case was prepared with the fantastic insight and knowledge of various board members on here and they are grateful for that. In a nutshell, the sitting Judge awarded the full cost of the claim to the PPC in it's entirety. This is despite that during the first hearing the Judge hadn't even received a copy of the Claimants WS (The hearing only got adjourned which is ridiculous) For the curious, see here https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6312260/minster-baywatch-anpr-claim-form-received

I would add more to that thread and continue it but I haven't been able to speak to my friend and get the low-down. It was an in-person hearing, a full 90 minutes and £260 was awarded to Gladstone / MW. Obviously like everyone else I'm desperate to know more.

So my question here are as follows

1. Does my friends judgement represent a watershed moment, has a precedent been set?
   
2. Have their been any major changes in the law justifying the PPC's claims (the one given above was particularly dubious)
3. Do county court judges get it wrong frequently and what's the Board's experience with this?
4. Even with a seemingly tight defence and judgement can the course of conversation and questioning in the Court turn the table so dramantically?
   
5. Do people ever challenge these judgements and appeal successfully?
6. Apart from the expert contributors on this board's assessment, is independent legal advice recommended at this stage?
7. Any advice further advice for my friend if they want to challenge the judgement (I know this depends on what happened at the Court case but is it a case of sucking it up and capitulating to the PPC's/Judgement)
8. Are transcripts available / copies of the judgement and if not how are these obtained?
   

FlaatusGoat

Anyone? Usually this is a pretty active place? @Coupon-mad ?

Half_way

I assume this is a follow up to this:

 https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6312260/minster-baywatch-anpr-claim-form-received#latest

of which there is a reply

FlaatusGoat

Half_way said:

I assume this is a follow up to this:

 https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6312260/minster-baywatch-anpr-claim-form-received#latest

of which there is a reply

I noticed that. But here I'm looking for more general advice until I can follow up with my friend. Can you help?

Mouse007

I think the way it works here is

One case, one thread

any deviation will be ignored - for good reason

Johnersh

1. Does my friends judgement represent a watershed moment, has a precedent been set? No
2. Have their been any major changes in the law justifying the PPC's claims (the one given above was particularly dubious) There have been no major changes in law since Beavis
3. Do county court judges get it wrong frequently and what's the Board's experience with this? Judges are able to make findings of fact and weigh up information in the balance. It is possible to have a good defence and for it to be presented at a hearing badly and vice versa. It is possible that a judge forms a view and needs to be disabused of that. And yes it’s possible for judges to get it wrong as well as right.  This is the inherent unpredictability of trial and what professionals regard as part of ‘litigation risk’ As a side point, I suspect that in some cases, defendants fail to fight the bolt on costs and interest as a secondary battle having been “shell shocked” when it is clear the primary point is lost
4. Even with a seemingly tight defence and judgement can the course of conversation and questioning in the Court turn the table so dramantically?everything can change in open court. See 3 above
5. Do people ever challenge these judgements and appeal successfully? Given the sums in dispute, most are not prepared to bear the costs risks, but successful appeals are made and appear on the forum
6. Apart from the expert contributors on this board's assessment, is independent legal advice recommended at this stage? The hourly rate of most legal professionals will exceed the amount that you are currently ordered to pay.
7. Any advice further advice for my friend if they want to challenge the judgement (I know this depends on what happened at the Court case but is it a case of sucking it up and capitulating to the PPC's/Judgement) we weren’t there, so that is difficult. One of the low risk elements of this litigation is actually because the costs exposure, whilst not insignificant, is substantially lower for small claims than in other types of litigation 
8. Are transcripts available / copies of the judgement and if not how are these obtained? Yes. You need to complete the relevant form (Google it) choose an authorised provider and pay their fee - usually £60-80 depending on the hearing length

FlaatusGoat

Mouse007 said:

I think the way it works here is

One case, one thread

any deviation will be ignored - for good reason

I'll paste it there, then. But my questions are general until I get the lo down.

I just get this unsavoury feeling that since this case went pear shaped noone in the forum will want to touch it with a bargepole....

Mouse007

FlaatusGoat said:

I just get this unsavoury feeling that since this case went pear shaped noone in the forum will want to touch it with a bargepole....

I have an unsavoury feeling your post count makes you ineligible to come to such an unfair conclusion

95Rollers

Your unsavoury feeling is wrong.

It's very unfortunate your friend lost.  But unless any of us were there nobody will ever truly know why it went belly up. Unfortunately cases aren't always dead certs even though they should be.

In terms of appealing it's probably more cost and time than it could be worth depending on ones personal and financial circumstances.

The only winner here was the Legal Rep as he got paid. Your mate lost out financially, where £70 will go back to the court and the parking company won't see any of the remaining £190 as that will be used to pay the Rep and the Legal firm for their paperwork so thr parking firm will be in the minus on this occasion.  Its not great, it sucks on a principle basis. Unless your friend has ppts of money I'd leave it. Its not a criminal matter or a CCJ so it's not disclosable to employers or anything like that. 

Coupon-mad

I just get this unsavoury feeling that since this case went pear shaped no-one in the forum will want to touch it with a bargepole....

You already have a full reply from @Johnersh who is a solicitor.  I think he's covered everything.

I had also seen that this was a duplicate thread where a reply had already answered all your points very well, so earlier today, I ignored this one, so we didn't end up with two discussions about the same points.

But I will add:

We do see 1% of cases lost. The case didn't go pear shaped; losing does happen.  We don't promise 100% wins and we'd be silly to suggest that.  The Defendant just sadly lost because the Judge preferred what they heard on the day, from the claimant's rep.

This is a sad fact of DJ Lottery and nothing new, I'm afraid.

I nearly lost a case once, where the Judge was clearly against me and the Defendant from the off, and declared that he knew the car park and thought the signs were very clear.  It was really uncomfortable for 5 minutes. Then it became apparent that the Claimant, OPS and their legal roboclaim idiots had screwed up the service of the WS and the Judge got angry when that became clear and he threw the claim out.

Yes, things change during the hearing.  It is unfair on consumers but - particularly if the Judge hasn't had time to read the papers or is a bit tired - it is all about what is said (the law is what you take into the room).  Quite often, a legal rep 'talks the talk' better. 

That's not surprising. The good thing is, most Judges are not so easily impressed by parking cases these days, are supportive of victims defendants and do NOT usually find in favour of parking firms.

But because we have around a 1% loss rate we do see some cases not succeed.  e.g. there is another one on the forum at the moment, the case of @ricky_balboa who has come back and analysed why he thinks his case was lost but is not blaming the forum.

If you get a bad Judge you have to pay up and move on, unless there is a clear error in law.

Snakes_Belly

It will be useful to see why the judge decided in favour of the Claimant after 90 minutes. 

It is not clear in the OP's original post what the actual transgression is. If the driver did not pay for parking then the signage would have to be poor and that is subjective.  

Judges are from different legal backgrounds but all will understand contract law. The contract is formed by the signage and if the judge deemed the signage to be adequate they are likely to decide in favour of the PPC. 

The PPC will show images of their signs to the best advantage.