Potential separation of elderly parents…advice please

Molly56

Looking for any advice for the following scenario please… 

A couple in their late eighties …..woman has been ‘unwell’ for some months and in hospital (first under NHS and then sectioned under Mental Health) awaiting official diagnosis but no physical reasons found for ‘illness’ and won’t speak to doctors….generally unresponsive/ won’t talk to family members either but has intimated at one point that she doesn’t want to return home to live with husband.

Awaiting discharge meeting with hospital to see what they will suggest but not sure what the options will be. 

Another family member is suggesting possible solutions that could effectively force husband out of his home…..suggesting selling property or equity release (neither of which I would readily agree to) and getting separate properties for them to live in. Don’t really think this is a practical option at their advanced years and current health issues and think familiarity of existing house would be best.

The above seems a bit extreme to me and seems very unfair on my dad who is managing to look after himself in the main and has his routines and life in a house he has lived in for the last 30 years….not fair that he should be forced out by fact that she doesn’t want to live there….seems very selfish to me.

Myself and other family member have power of attorney over parents affairs ….what happens if I fundamentally disagree with what their proposals are. Wondering if I need to seek advice and if so who from.

Any ideas on what other options are available in such a situation such as care home place or alternative accommodation without having to sell family home from under dads feet….my understanding is that home doesn’t come into equation when first person goes into care and that only income and savings count….value of home would be taken into account if second to the two had to go into care but until then house is considered as needed for spouse to live in.

At this point not sure if hospital consider her condition stable enough for discharge but just want to be prepared for whatever options are put on the table and hope that family can come to agreement. 

Any advice or suggestions welcome.

lisyloo

The best thing would be to consult with the discharge coordinator or team on an ongoing basis rather than wait for their proposals.

She/you can pay for a care home privately any time you like.

A care home paid for by the local authority cannot be demanded and will only be provided if there is a need that cannot be catered for by cheaper home visits (up to 4 per day).

She cannot force your dad out of his home and I agree that’s not right.

I wouldnt wait for options to be put on the table.
I’d be consulting with the discharge coordinator or team on an ongoing basis.

one things for sure she cannot just demand a new home at the tax payers expense.
people only go into care homes paid for by the local authority when other options e.g. care at home, have been exhausted.

Flugelhorn

Re costs there is some provision for funding of  continuing care for people who have had mental health section in the past - depends on the type of section https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/legal-rights/leaving-hospital/section-117-aftercare/

Ratkin007

Has the woman said why she doesn't want to return to the home?
Has the situation been discussed with the husband, would he want to move?
Could sheltered accommodation be an option? Maybe a social worker can provide support, speak to the female.

lisyloo

Another reason for consulting on an on-going basis is as follows.

should discharge to a residential or nursing home be decided then the local authority might get fined if she is bed blocking, hence there is pressure to get her out of hospital (and of course they need the bed). I’ve been in this position myself twice so it’s not hearsay.
in this case they might put her somewhere far from family or a low standard home.

we got very involved i the process.

do you have siblings who should also be involved. It can be quite a lot of work e.g. visiting numerous care homes to check them out. Even phoning round for the prices takes time.

elsien

If she’s under section 3 then look into 117 aftercare which can be used to fund places in some circumstances.
Information on mind/rethink websites. 
Also look at nursing needs and make sure if she’s not 117 that a CHC checklist is carried out. It’s not just about money - residential homes can’t accept people with nursing needs so there needs to be clarity about her long term level of support. 

If she doesn’t want to return home for whatever reason, that is her choice. But there are two points to consider for the LPA - if the people concerned have capacity then you can only use it with their consent. So don’t assume that the LPA can start making decisions on their behalf until capacity has been fully explored for both of them if there are any queries. If the man has capacity and wants to stay where he is, then that is his decision.
Secondly If he lacks capacity around this specific decision, then being forced out because of his wife is open to challenge as not being in his individual best interests. 

Acting in their individual best interests is very difficult if those conflict, and that’s something you may want to take advice about. You could speak to the OPG although I’ve not found them a great deal of use at times. 

I have seen situations like this where one person either doesn’t want to go home, or the partner doesn’t want them home and alternatives have been found. Usually a care home either because housing with care does not give enough support, or because it’s too complicated claiming rent when they own half a house that they are not living in.

As above, make all the professionals aware that there is an LPA (is it just for finances, or health/welfare as well - that also makes a difference) and make sure you are fully part of that discharge planning process. 

otb666

very difficult we have been through this Now both parents are in separate care homes and their house being sold to cover the costs for 4 years then council will have to take over

Keep_pedalling

As your father still has his mental faculties non of his attorneys can act for him without his authority so this ridiculous idea is a non starter. If I was your father I would seriously think about removing this attorney.

TBagpuss

Assuming neither has lost capacity then you as their attornies can't overrule their own decisions. If your mother / dad's wife is found to have lost capacity then as attorney you have a duty to act in her best interests. This might create a conflict of interest with your dad and you might have to consider resigning as attorney for one or both of them.

If your dad wants to stay in the house then one optin would be to look at ways for him to raise money to enable him to buy out his wife's share - equity release might be one option, or loans from children if feasible. Either way, it's  worth consideing with him whether selling and movng to smaller accommodation might have advantages, especially if he will be living alone from now on, it may be that sheltered / warden controlled housing would be a good option for him to consider.

I understand why you see it as selfish but you don't know why she wants to separate. It could equally be argued that it is selfish of him to insist on staying in the property rather than enabling her to have her fair share.

On a practical level, a lot depends on her wishes and options. If there are funds available that would allow suitable property to be rented for her she might be willing to do so . 

sammyjammy

TBagpuss said:

I understnsd why you see it as selfish but you don't know why she wants to separate. It could equally be rgued that it is selfish of him to insist on staying in the property rather than enabling her ot have her fiar sahre.

On a practical lvel, a lot epends on her wishes and options. If there are funds available that would allow sutable property to be rented for her she might be willing to do so . 

Certainly looks to me like there is more to it, just because they are elderly doesn't mean their feelings don't matter.  Maybe she felt so stuck in the situation and didn't know how to get herself out of it.  What is your fathers reaction to her emotionally since she was taken into hospital?  Does he visit?

Molly56

Thanks for all advice so so far

Just a couple of questions

1. if looking at social care and means test assessment do they look at capital (savings and investments) as a total for the couple or individually if just one party is going into care. 

Say one party had an investment in their name of £6000 and joint savings of £10000 is this simply added together to total £16k or split as £11k / £5k…..is the Investment effectively  deemed to be jointly owned for purpose of means test. 

2. Is it correct that any life insurance policies are not included as capital for means test assessment

3. if £4000 were paid to take out a funeral plan could this be deemed to be deprivation of assets