EPC Does it encourage saving energy?

JohnRV8

We have just had an EPC update on our property and I am trying to understand the logic of the savings recommendations

EPC 2012

Increase loft insulation to 270mm – saving 762kW gas and a £36 saving which would equate to 4.7p/kWh

 EPC 2022

 Increase loft insulation to 270mm – saving 837kW gas and a £36 saving which would equate to 4.3p/kWh

 Additional insulation cost for this property would be £140 installed by myself which would take 3.88 years to pay back through savings based on the EPC.

However, based on the current gas price 7.3p/kW would result in a saving of £114/annum giving a payback of 15months

How does the EPC help to advise the owner of ways to reduce its energy usage and save money when it is not reflecting the current energy costs. Where is the government logic when they are trying to encourage saving fuel and are not providing the homeowner with up to date information. Whether the energy is generated from green resources or not is irrelevant  as the average consumer is only interested in saving money (kWhs). Based on the EPC logic one would never improve their property to save money. In fact many years ago the recommended loft insulation was 100mm which was on a cost vs savings ratio as is increasing it to 270mm.

I wonder based on the current fuel prices what the recommended loft insulation would be? What is the insulation thicknesses in the Building Regulations for new build?

Doubling the loft insulation on new build would be at minimum cost and would benefit all of society in the future

Norman_Castle

JohnRV8 said:

I wonder based on the current fuel prices what the recommended loft insulation would be? What is the insulation thicknesses in the Building Regulations for new build?

Doubling the loft insulation on new build would be at minimum cost and would benefit all of society in the future

I'd expect increasing insulation thickness has diminishing returns. The EPC states projected savings in kWh so costs can be adjusted to suit any price changes.

My EPC states there's a floor above mine which there isn't and claims I could save more than my total annual gas bill. Matching their projected savings to my actual usage it would take decades to recoup their suggested changes.

FreeBear

Norman_Castle said:

JohnRV8 said:

I wonder based on the current fuel prices what the recommended loft insulation would be? What is the insulation thicknesses in the Building Regulations for new build?

Doubling the loft insulation on new build would be at minimum cost and would benefit all of society in the future

I'd expect increasing insulation thickness has diminishing returns. The EPC states projected savings in kWh so costs can be adjusted to suit any price changes.

My EPC states there's a floor above mine which there isn't and claims I could save more than my total annual gas bill. Matching their projected savings to my actual usage it would take decades to recoup their suggested changes.

With loft insulation (fibreglass or mineral wool), there is indeed a point at where adding more doesn't achieve any worthwhile savings. The cost of a few rolls of insulation is not great, and it is easy enough for most able bodied people to install. Just get on and do it, ignore the potential savings that the EPC bandies about - Much of the time, it is just a number pulled from someones [redacted orifice].

Some of the energy saving recommendations contained within an EPC are worthwhile and relatively inexpensive. e.g. LED lighting - I have LEDs in all light fittings, and currently use less than 70KWh p.a. for lighting. Intelligent heating control - No need to spend a fortune on Hive/Nest. A cheap programmable thermostat that allows for different temperatures throughout the day/week could save 10-15%. TRVs on all the radiators and set correctly will also help.

Insulating floors & walls, whilst a desirable energy saving measure, is always expensive, and quite often impractical unless the property is completely empty and being refurbished. For a house that is currently occupied, going round and plugging the draughts (between floorboards & skirting is a favourite) is low cost and will generate noticeable savings - This is one thing the EPC fails to mention..

Spreadsheetman

The numbers are very broad-brush, just indications. The big wins are usually loft insulation, double glazing, cavity wall insulation and stopping drafts. Everything else is hugely expensive for minimal return.

I use the EPC more as a screening tool when buying as it shows a bit about the construction of a property and how it is heated. Where I live (rural) there are a lot of period properties that look lovely, but are a disaster to try and heat - the EPC gives most of them away immediately.

Norman_Castle

FreeBear said:

Norman_Castle said:

JohnRV8 said:

I wonder based on the current fuel prices what the recommended loft insulation would be? What is the insulation thicknesses in the Building Regulations for new build?

Doubling the loft insulation on new build would be at minimum cost and would benefit all of society in the future

I'd expect increasing insulation thickness has diminishing returns. The EPC states projected savings in kWh so costs can be adjusted to suit any price changes.

My EPC states there's a floor above mine which there isn't and claims I could save more than my total annual gas bill. Matching their projected savings to my actual usage it would take decades to recoup their suggested changes.

 For a house that is currently occupied, going round and plugging the draughts (between floorboards & skirting is a favourite) is low cost and will generate noticeable savings - This is one thing the EPC fails to mention..

+1. I'd expect this is the most cost effective improvement that can be done. I've often found where pipework passes through floors or walls to be very draughty and these are often hidden under baths or behind cupboards or plinths.

ComicGeek

There will be updates to the EPC calculation software in the next couple of months, but AFAIK they aren't significantly changing the fuel rates - they will still reflect fuel prices from a few years ago, rather than current/future prices.

Yes, the estimated (and this is based on average usage and can never accurately predict what your personal life style is) usage is quoted in units of energy so can be checked, but the headline annual energy costs might be 1/3rd of what they could be in real life, before any additional life style usage is taken into account. Also don't include all energy costs, like cooking, appliances, TVs etc

The problem is needing to have a system where different houses can be directly compared - they should have just stuck with the A-G rating, and not started quoting annual energy costs. Now they're stuck, as to raise the fuel prices significantly on the calculation now would mean that an EPC produced 9 years ago would look much better than one produced now.

RelievedSheff

JohnRV8 said:

We have just had an EPC update on our property and I am trying to understand the logic of the savings recommendations

EPC 2012

Increase loft insulation to 270mm – saving 762kW gas and a £36 saving which would equate to 4.7p/kWh

 EPC 2022

 Increase loft insulation to 270mm – saving 837kW gas and a £36 saving which would equate to 4.3p/kWh

 Additional insulation cost for this property would be £140 installed by myself which would take 3.88 years to pay back through savings based on the EPC.

However, based on the current gas price 7.3p/kW would result in a saving of £114/annum giving a payback of 15months

How does the EPC help to advise the owner of ways to reduce its energy usage and save money when it is not reflecting the current energy costs. Where is the government logic when they are trying to encourage saving fuel and are not providing the homeowner with up to date information. Whether the energy is generated from green resources or not is irrelevant  as the average consumer is only interested in saving money (kWhs). Based on the EPC logic one would never improve their property to save money. In fact many years ago the recommended loft insulation was 100mm which was on a cost vs savings ratio as is increasing it to 270mm.

I wonder based on the current fuel prices what the recommended loft insulation would be? What is the insulation thicknesses in the Building Regulations for new build?

Doubling the loft insulation on new build would be at minimum cost and would benefit all of society in the future

The loft insulation in our 3 year old "new build" is 700mm thick already. (double the minimum recommended thickness.)

There is little point in increasing this further. In fact there is an argument that there was little point in the builder increasing the thickness from the recommended minimum due to diminishing returns.

FreeBear

ComicGeek said: The problem is needing to have a system where different houses can be directly compared - they should have just stuck with the A-G rating, and not started quoting annual energy costs. Now they're stuck, as to raise the fuel prices significantly on the calculation now would mean that an EPC produced 9 years ago would look much better than one produced now.

The right way of quantifying any savings/usage is to present the data as KWh and skip the "you could save ££".

TripleH

I would say user error is more of an issue than an EPC for wasting energy.

I used to house share with someone who insisted on whacking up the thermostate as high as it went but leaving his window wide open all day.

The floorboard issue is a key one as is checking windows and doors shut properly. We rented a house with double glazing but the windows never shut properly so there would be a draught in winter (if we'd stayed).

ComicGeek

FreeBear said:

ComicGeek said: The problem is needing to have a system where different houses can be directly compared - they should have just stuck with the A-G rating, and not started quoting annual energy costs. Now they're stuck, as to raise the fuel prices significantly on the calculation now would mean that an EPC produced 9 years ago would look much better than one produced now.

The right way of quantifying any savings/usage is to present the data as KWh and skip the "you could save ££".

Yes, that's exactly what the industry said when the concept of the EPC was created, but the Government in their wisdom didn't follow this advice.

The stupid thing was that, with energy prices so low at the time, any potential ££ savings were so small that no one was going to action them anyway!