Protection if you flag discrimination at work on behalf of someone else?

Teapot55

It’s a prudent money-saving move to have house insurance and, in the same vein, if you still then have money spare it’s a wise choice to protect your livelihood by paying union dues. Not only will a union protect your job, they’re a source of invaluable free advice on employment matters. 

A person concerned for the welfare of others might want to consider joining a union and getting some training with them to help them to help others. 

Undervalued

Teapot55 said:

It’s a prudent money-saving move to have house insurance and, in the same vein, if you still then have money spare it’s a wise choice to protect your livelihood by paying union dues. Not only will a union protect your job, they’re a source of invaluable free advice on employment matters. 

A person concerned for the welfare of others might want to consider joining a union and getting some training with them to help them to help others. 

Indeed but they almost certainly won't cover the OP for an issue which began before joining.

pimbo

Teapot55 said:

It’s a prudent money-saving move to have house insurance and, in the same vein, if you still then have money spare it’s a wise choice to protect your livelihood by paying union dues. Not only will a union protect your job, they’re a source of invaluable free advice on employment matters. 

A person concerned for the welfare of others might want to consider joining a union and getting some training with them to help them to help others. 

The parties in question have not had much luck with the union unfortunately. They were given false information, didn't return phone calls and the only person they can get hold of is a volunteer union rep who works for the same employer and is very wary of upsetting them.

pimbo

Undervalued said:

I think I answered that, as far as is possible on the information available, in my earlier post (no 3 in this thread).

Yes and thank you for that. This is a contractual dispute where a department staffed predominantly by employees who do not have English as their first language are being treated less favourably than a department staffed by mostly native English speakers. Despite both departments having exactly the same terms and conditions. Therefore I can't imagine this could be classed as criminal discrimination. Would that mean statutory protection is less likely?

TELLIT01

pimbo said:

They have attempted to raise these matters with the employer directly but they just got fobbed off. I'm not as easily fobbed off and quite frankly if the employer turns ugly I probably wouldn't want to work there anyway and would seek to move on but I wouldn't want to make it easy for them. Which is why I'd like to know if I have any legal protections if I raise a concern about unlawful discrimination that someone else is experiencing.

That would simply leave the person left behind in a worse position than they are currently in.  Not only would the employer know who was behind the complaint, but that person wouldn't have the 'protection' of somebody who is prepared to stir things up and then walk away.

pimbo

TELLIT01 said:

pimbo said:

They have attempted to raise these matters with the employer directly but they just got fobbed off. I'm not as easily fobbed off and quite frankly if the employer turns ugly I probably wouldn't want to work there anyway and would seek to move on but I wouldn't want to make it easy for them. Which is why I'd like to know if I have any legal protections if I raise a concern about unlawful discrimination that someone else is experiencing.

That would simply leave the person left behind in a worse position than they are currently in.  Not only would the employer know who was behind the complaint, but that person wouldn't have the 'protection' of somebody who is prepared to stir things up and then walk away.

The reality is if your employer wants you out they'll find a way. I'm just trying to find out if it comes to that how much protection do I have.

Savvy_Sue

pimbo said:

Teapot55 said:

It’s a prudent money-saving move to have house insurance and, in the same vein, if you still then have money spare it’s a wise choice to protect your livelihood by paying union dues. Not only will a union protect your job, they’re a source of invaluable free advice on employment matters. 

A person concerned for the welfare of others might want to consider joining a union and getting some training with them to help them to help others. 

The parties in question have not had much luck with the union unfortunately. They were given false information, didn't return phone calls and the only person they can get hold of is a volunteer union rep who works for the same employer and is very wary of upsetting them.

They can phone the union and ask for a local rep who doesn't work there. 

pimbo

Savvy_Sue said:

They can phone the union and ask for a local rep who doesn't work there. 

They've tried that but were told the workplace rep was the only person who could deal with it as he knows the case and is best placed to decide if it needs to be escalated. He's pals with management so of course he has refused to escalate it. They were told that if they weren't happy about it they could follow the unions complaints procedure which they did but they've heard nothing despite emailing to ask for progress. The advice they initially got from their trade union was incorrect and has only made matters worse.

Undervalued

pimbo said:

TELLIT01 said:

pimbo said:

They have attempted to raise these matters with the employer directly but they just got fobbed off. I'm not as easily fobbed off and quite frankly if the employer turns ugly I probably wouldn't want to work there anyway and would seek to move on but I wouldn't want to make it easy for them. Which is why I'd like to know if I have any legal protections if I raise a concern about unlawful discrimination that someone else is experiencing.

That would simply leave the person left behind in a worse position than they are currently in.  Not only would the employer know who was behind the complaint, but that person wouldn't have the 'protection' of somebody who is prepared to stir things up and then walk away.

The reality is if your employer wants you out they'll find a way. I'm just trying to find out if it comes to that how much protection do I have.

Indeed.

The answer is generally far less than most people fondly imagine. Nobody can stop an employer from sacking an employee. The best they can do is get some limited compensation months or years down the line.

Unless you were actually dismissed proving that you were "managed out" (constructive unfair dismissal) is a very high bar to climb. Less than 3% of such cases that get to tribunal are won. OK, some are of course settled before that point.

Unless you are covered by insurance or a trade union you will either have to self represent or hire a lawyer at your own risk. No win no fee is occasionally available but be very, very careful. Provided you declare everything you are protected should you lose but it is very easy to "win" but end up out of pocket.

Most tribunal awards are under £10K, the few headline grabbing cases are the exception, which is why they grab the headlines.

A tribunal can't force the employer to turn the clock back and re-employ you. In theory they can order reinstatement but the penalty for the employer not doing so is so small it virtually never happens.

Any award will expect you to have made every attempt to minimise your losses. That means getting a job, that is any job, not just one you want.

Having costs awarded against you is rare but can and does happen if you persist with a weak or hopeless case. The employer's lawyers will make all kinds of warnings about seeking costs (threats!). You need to be brave to tough that out if you are on your own.

TBagpuss

pimbo said:

TELLIT01 said:

A H&S issue is one thing, and should be reported whether or not it affects the individual who notices the problem directly or not.  Supposed discrimination is somewhat more vague in many instances.  The person being discriminated against in the eyes of a 3rd party may not see it that way themself, and reporting it may make life difficult for that person.  I would not report it unless I had spoken directly to the person first.

Unfortunately it seems that these days some people see discrimination of one kind or another in almost everything that happens.

Fair points. I can't say too much online but in my instance I have spoken to the individuals involved and they do feel that they're having their terms and conditions violated because English isn't their first language and are seen as easy to push around because of that.

They have attempted to raise these matters with the employer directly but they just got fobbed off. I'm not as easily fobbed off and quite frankly if the employer turns ugly I probably wouldn't want to work there anyway and would seek to move on but I wouldn't want to make it easy for them. Which is why I'd like to know if I have any legal protections if I raise a concern about unlawful discrimination that someone else is experiencing.

In that case, you would probably be best to recomment to them that they join a unuion, and that you also offer to help them raise a formal grievance (your employer probably has a formal girevanc process) and to accompany them to any eetings. While there is noformal right to be accommanied to a metting about a grievance, most reasonable employers would permit it not least as refusing it without good reason might be grounds for a further complaint or an allegation of iscrimination as it reduces the person's ability to understnad and fully particupate in the mettering, if they don't have english as a first language