Fence in Wrong Position to Plans

Section62

Ath_Wat said:

aoleks said:

I didn’t read the entire thread, but property boundary and fences are not always the same. I can put up a fence inside my boundary, away from the edge. It doesn’t mean I don’t own the land behind the fence.

clarify where your boundaries are (developer might be able to help) and then decide what you want to do.

If you had read the whole thread you would see that his deeds and the Land Registry concur with the situation as it is on the ground.  All he has is an old application for planning permission that shows the developer at one point intended to put the fence in a different place.  

However I don't think it was ever clarified whether the 'deeds' are based on the developer's original plan, or on OS mapping data.

The thread has also tended to skip over the point that LR title plans based on OS mapping are only showing "general boundaries" - they can't show the precise location of the legal boundary.

Ath_Wat

Section62 said:

Ath_Wat said:

aoleks said:

I didn’t read the entire thread, but property boundary and fences are not always the same. I can put up a fence inside my boundary, away from the edge. It doesn’t mean I don’t own the land behind the fence.

clarify where your boundaries are (developer might be able to help) and then decide what you want to do.

If you had read the whole thread you would see that his deeds and the Land Registry concur with the situation as it is on the ground.  All he has is an old application for planning permission that shows the developer at one point intended to put the fence in a different place.  

However I don't think it was ever clarified whether the 'deeds' are based on the developer's original plan, or on OS mapping data.

The thread has also tended to skip over the point that LR title plans based on OS mapping are only showing "general boundaries" - they can't show the precise location of the legal boundary.

It doesn't really matter, does it.  There is absolutely nothing to show that the plot of land first sold by the developer to the first owner was supposed to be anything other than what it is now.  They were presented with that, all relevant plans say that, and that is what they bought.

The fact that the developer at some point before the houses were built  thought they might make that plot a different shape is utterly irrelevant to anything.  Those things change all the time.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the legal boundary is anything other than where the fence is, so the fact that LR mappings are not precise doesn't have any bearing.  

p00hsticks

Section62 said:

Ath_Wat said:

aoleks said:

I didn’t read the entire thread, but property boundary and fences are not always the same. I can put up a fence inside my boundary, away from the edge. It doesn’t mean I don’t own the land behind the fence.

clarify where your boundaries are (developer might be able to help) and then decide what you want to do.

If you had read the whole thread you would see that his deeds and the Land Registry concur with the situation as it is on the ground.  All he has is an old application for planning permission that shows the developer at one point intended to put the fence in a different place.  

However I don't think it was ever clarified whether the 'deeds' are based on the developer's original plan, or on OS mapping data.

THe OP said that ' our deeds show the boundary line as the fence is currently placed. '

Section62

Ath_Wat said:

Section62 said:

Ath_Wat said:

aoleks said:

I didn’t read the entire thread, but property boundary and fences are not always the same. I can put up a fence inside my boundary, away from the edge. It doesn’t mean I don’t own the land behind the fence.

clarify where your boundaries are (developer might be able to help) and then decide what you want to do.

If you had read the whole thread you would see that his deeds and the Land Registry concur with the situation as it is on the ground.  All he has is an old application for planning permission that shows the developer at one point intended to put the fence in a different place.  

However I don't think it was ever clarified whether the 'deeds' are based on the developer's original plan, or on OS mapping data.

The thread has also tended to skip over the point that LR title plans based on OS mapping are only showing "general boundaries" - they can't show the precise location of the legal boundary.

It doesn't really matter, does it.  There is absolutely nothing to show that the plot of land first sold by the developer to the first owner was supposed to be anything other than what it is now.  They were presented with that, all relevant plans say that, and that is what they bought.

The fact that the developer at some point before the houses were built  thought they might make that plot a different shape is utterly irrelevant to anything.  Those things change all the time.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the legal boundary is anything other than where the fence is, so the fact that LR mappings are not precise doesn't have any bearing.  

I think you've missed the point - that 'we' don't know what the plans showed when the property was first sold. 

The "absolutely nothing" is - at this point - an absence of evidence, not evidence of absence.

Section62

p00hsticks said:

Section62 said:

Ath_Wat said:

aoleks said:

I didn’t read the entire thread, but property boundary and fences are not always the same. I can put up a fence inside my boundary, away from the edge. It doesn’t mean I don’t own the land behind the fence.

clarify where your boundaries are (developer might be able to help) and then decide what you want to do.

If you had read the whole thread you would see that his deeds and the Land Registry concur with the situation as it is on the ground.  All he has is an old application for planning permission that shows the developer at one point intended to put the fence in a different place.  

However I don't think it was ever clarified whether the 'deeds' are based on the developer's original plan, or on OS mapping data.

THe OP said that ' our deeds show the boundary line as the fence is currently placed. '

What does that mean though?  The title plan downloaded from the internet? Or a copy of the original transfer plan?

Ath_Wat

Section62 said:

Ath_Wat said:

Section62 said:

Ath_Wat said:

aoleks said:

I didn’t read the entire thread, but property boundary and fences are not always the same. I can put up a fence inside my boundary, away from the edge. It doesn’t mean I don’t own the land behind the fence.

clarify where your boundaries are (developer might be able to help) and then decide what you want to do.

If you had read the whole thread you would see that his deeds and the Land Registry concur with the situation as it is on the ground.  All he has is an old application for planning permission that shows the developer at one point intended to put the fence in a different place.  

However I don't think it was ever clarified whether the 'deeds' are based on the developer's original plan, or on OS mapping data.

The thread has also tended to skip over the point that LR title plans based on OS mapping are only showing "general boundaries" - they can't show the precise location of the legal boundary.

It doesn't really matter, does it.  There is absolutely nothing to show that the plot of land first sold by the developer to the first owner was supposed to be anything other than what it is now.  They were presented with that, all relevant plans say that, and that is what they bought.

The fact that the developer at some point before the houses were built  thought they might make that plot a different shape is utterly irrelevant to anything.  Those things change all the time.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the legal boundary is anything other than where the fence is, so the fact that LR mappings are not precise doesn't have any bearing.  

I think you've missed the point - that 'we' don't know what the plans showed when the property was first sold. 

The "absolutely nothing" is - at this point - an absence of evidence, not evidence of absence.

Why would they have changed?  If they have, someone has agreed to change them.  Are you suggesting the neighbour has nefariously had them changed to reflect the position on the ground somehow, illegally?

If they changed, they changed.  The OP bought the changed plot.  If someone sells or gives away half their garden 2 years before you buy their house, you can't claim that half back.

And the fact that there is no evidence to suggest that a boundary is in the wrong place is exactly what you would get for every boundary in the UK that is in the right place.  You need some evidence showing it is wrong if you want to move it.  That old canard is often improperly applied, and you are  improperly applying it here.

Section62

Ath_Wat said:

Section62 said:

Ath_Wat said:

Section62 said:

Ath_Wat said:

aoleks said:

I didn’t read the entire thread, but property boundary and fences are not always the same. I can put up a fence inside my boundary, away from the edge. It doesn’t mean I don’t own the land behind the fence.

clarify where your boundaries are (developer might be able to help) and then decide what you want to do.

If you had read the whole thread you would see that his deeds and the Land Registry concur with the situation as it is on the ground.  All he has is an old application for planning permission that shows the developer at one point intended to put the fence in a different place.  

However I don't think it was ever clarified whether the 'deeds' are based on the developer's original plan, or on OS mapping data.

The thread has also tended to skip over the point that LR title plans based on OS mapping are only showing "general boundaries" - they can't show the precise location of the legal boundary.

It doesn't really matter, does it.  There is absolutely nothing to show that the plot of land first sold by the developer to the first owner was supposed to be anything other than what it is now.  They were presented with that, all relevant plans say that, and that is what they bought.

The fact that the developer at some point before the houses were built  thought they might make that plot a different shape is utterly irrelevant to anything.  Those things change all the time.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the legal boundary is anything other than where the fence is, so the fact that LR mappings are not precise doesn't have any bearing.  

I think you've missed the point - that 'we' don't know what the plans showed when the property was first sold. 

The "absolutely nothing" is - at this point - an absence of evidence, not evidence of absence.

Why would they have changed?  If they have, someone has agreed to change them.  Are you suggesting the neighbour has nefariously had them changed to reflect the position on the ground somehow, illegally?

If they changed, they changed.  The OP bought the changed plot.  If someone sells or gives away half their garden 2 years before you buy their house, you can't claim that half back.

And the fact that there is no evidence to suggest that a boundary is in the wrong place is exactly what you would get for every boundary in the UK that is in the right place.  You need some evidence showing it is wrong if you want to move it.  That old canard is often improperly applied, and you are  improperly applying it here.

No, I'm just pointing out that some people are jumping to conclusions based on a lack of information.  I'm not 'applying' anything myself.

You are dismissing the plan the OP posted as being just an "old application for planning permission", but we have no way of knowing how the fence came to be in a different position to that planned.  It could be the developer changed the plan, it could be the previous neighbour nipped out in the middle of the night and moved the fence posts.

The definitive answer to that will come from the original transfer plan which, as yet, none of us here have seen.

Hence dismissing the OP's query quite so vigorously is a bit premature.

Ath_Wat

Section62 said:

Ath_Wat said:

Section62 said:

Ath_Wat said:

Section62 said:

Ath_Wat said:

aoleks said:

I didn’t read the entire thread, but property boundary and fences are not always the same. I can put up a fence inside my boundary, away from the edge. It doesn’t mean I don’t own the land behind the fence.

clarify where your boundaries are (developer might be able to help) and then decide what you want to do.

If you had read the whole thread you would see that his deeds and the Land Registry concur with the situation as it is on the ground.  All he has is an old application for planning permission that shows the developer at one point intended to put the fence in a different place.  

However I don't think it was ever clarified whether the 'deeds' are based on the developer's original plan, or on OS mapping data.

The thread has also tended to skip over the point that LR title plans based on OS mapping are only showing "general boundaries" - they can't show the precise location of the legal boundary.

It doesn't really matter, does it.  There is absolutely nothing to show that the plot of land first sold by the developer to the first owner was supposed to be anything other than what it is now.  They were presented with that, all relevant plans say that, and that is what they bought.

The fact that the developer at some point before the houses were built  thought they might make that plot a different shape is utterly irrelevant to anything.  Those things change all the time.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the legal boundary is anything other than where the fence is, so the fact that LR mappings are not precise doesn't have any bearing.  

I think you've missed the point - that 'we' don't know what the plans showed when the property was first sold. 

The "absolutely nothing" is - at this point - an absence of evidence, not evidence of absence.

Why would they have changed?  If they have, someone has agreed to change them.  Are you suggesting the neighbour has nefariously had them changed to reflect the position on the ground somehow, illegally?

If they changed, they changed.  The OP bought the changed plot.  If someone sells or gives away half their garden 2 years before you buy their house, you can't claim that half back.

And the fact that there is no evidence to suggest that a boundary is in the wrong place is exactly what you would get for every boundary in the UK that is in the right place.  You need some evidence showing it is wrong if you want to move it.  That old canard is often improperly applied, and you are  improperly applying it here.

No, I'm just pointing out that some people are jumping to conclusions based on a lack of information.  I'm not 'applying' anything myself.

You are dismissing the plan the OP posted as being just an "old application for planning permission", but we have no way of knowing how the fence came to be in a different position to that planned.  It could be the developer changed the plan, it could be the previous neighbour nipped out in the middle of the night and moved the fence posts.

The definitive answer to that will come from the original transfer plan which, as yet, none of us here have seen.

Hence dismissing the OP's query quite so vigorously is a bit premature.

Fences move all the time in relation to the original planning permission.  If the land registry's original plan showed different boundaries, how and why do you think those boundaries could or would have been changed to reflect the neighbour "nipping out and moving the fence in the middle of the night"?  

Section62

Ath_Wat said:

Section62 said:

Ath_Wat said:

Section62 said:

Ath_Wat said:

Section62 said:

Ath_Wat said:

aoleks said:

I didn’t read the entire thread, but property boundary and fences are not always the same. I can put up a fence inside my boundary, away from the edge. It doesn’t mean I don’t own the land behind the fence.

clarify where your boundaries are (developer might be able to help) and then decide what you want to do.

If you had read the whole thread you would see that his deeds and the Land Registry concur with the situation as it is on the ground.  All he has is an old application for planning permission that shows the developer at one point intended to put the fence in a different place.  

However I don't think it was ever clarified whether the 'deeds' are based on the developer's original plan, or on OS mapping data.

The thread has also tended to skip over the point that LR title plans based on OS mapping are only showing "general boundaries" - they can't show the precise location of the legal boundary.

It doesn't really matter, does it.  There is absolutely nothing to show that the plot of land first sold by the developer to the first owner was supposed to be anything other than what it is now.  They were presented with that, all relevant plans say that, and that is what they bought.

The fact that the developer at some point before the houses were built  thought they might make that plot a different shape is utterly irrelevant to anything.  Those things change all the time.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the legal boundary is anything other than where the fence is, so the fact that LR mappings are not precise doesn't have any bearing.  

I think you've missed the point - that 'we' don't know what the plans showed when the property was first sold. 

The "absolutely nothing" is - at this point - an absence of evidence, not evidence of absence.

Why would they have changed?  If they have, someone has agreed to change them.  Are you suggesting the neighbour has nefariously had them changed to reflect the position on the ground somehow, illegally?

If they changed, they changed.  The OP bought the changed plot.  If someone sells or gives away half their garden 2 years before you buy their house, you can't claim that half back.

And the fact that there is no evidence to suggest that a boundary is in the wrong place is exactly what you would get for every boundary in the UK that is in the right place.  You need some evidence showing it is wrong if you want to move it.  That old canard is often improperly applied, and you are  improperly applying it here.

No, I'm just pointing out that some people are jumping to conclusions based on a lack of information.  I'm not 'applying' anything myself.

You are dismissing the plan the OP posted as being just an "old application for planning permission", but we have no way of knowing how the fence came to be in a different position to that planned.  It could be the developer changed the plan, it could be the previous neighbour nipped out in the middle of the night and moved the fence posts.

The definitive answer to that will come from the original transfer plan which, as yet, none of us here have seen.

Hence dismissing the OP's query quite so vigorously is a bit premature.

Fences move all the time in relation to the original planning permission.  If the land registry's original plan showed different boundaries, how and why do you think those boundaries could or would have been changed to reflect the neighbour "nipping out and moving the fence in the middle of the night"?  

If the 'deeds' the OP refers to is the LR title plan based on OS mapping, and the OS mapping (as usually happens) is based on what the cartographer sees, then the LR title plan will reflect what is on the ground.

What the original buyer of the property purchased would normally be based on a transfer plan produced by the developer - because typically at that time the OS have not yet surveyed and published mapping of the development.

If the fence was put up in the wrong place - or subsequently moved - then the OS mapping won't show the 'legal' boundary, i.e. the land the developer transferred to the original buyer. The OS mapping will instead show what the cartographer thought was the boundary.

The particular point you've missed is that the boundary wasn't necessarily changed legally - the only 'change' could be in where the fence is physically located, and what the OS mapping shows.

That's the reason why I referred to the 'developer wants to move our fence' thread - if the OP in that case never got the situation sorted out legally then they and their neighbour will be in a very similar position to that the OP may be in.  In other words, the OS based plan and fence will be in one place, the transfer plan will show something else.

Bendy_House

Ath_Wat said:

Are you suggesting the neighbour has nefariously had them changed to reflect the position on the ground somehow, illegally?

Fences move all the time in relation to the original planning permission.  If the land registry's original plan showed different boundaries, how and why do you think those boundaries could or would have been changed to reflect the neighbour "nipping out and moving the fence in the middle of the night"?  

Quite a few threads on this, and other forums, based on that exact scenario.

Hence me suggesting 'historic' Google, just to see if the boundary might have moved since the houses were built.