Possible overpaid care home fees at death - any help appreciated

PoppyBlue

Hello

My grandmother passed away last month, and I've arranged her funeral and am sorting her affairs (her only child, my mum, died last year). 

At the point she passed, she had recently started being state-funded in her residential care home, having self-funded for over three years and paid over £200,000. I contacted social services last September to say that she was running low on funds (as per the £23,750 threshold I'd read about), but they refused to take up partial payment because nobody had Power of Attorney for her so they couldn't do a financial assessment; they let her account run right down until March this year, when her account had insufficient funds and the DD was refused. Social Services then agreed to cover her fees but stated they'd apply to the Court of Protection to access her bank account. 

I'm now wondering how the process should have worked, had I had PoA for her last year. Is her estate owed any refund for the care she paid? Or is there a chance social services might still expect any further payment? They had me try to gain appointee status to pay towards her care from her State Pension, but it wasn't put in place in time. 

I can't seem to find anything online other than companies helping people challenge the NHS continuing healthcare assessments - I don't think this applies and I don't want to get entangled with any dodgy businesses. I'd really appreciate any guidance, please, if anyone has any. 

msb1234

From the info I’ve read, once a self funder’s savings are falling to the upper threshold of £23250, then a financial assessment should be carried out. It’s not Social services that do this, it’s the Local Authority as they will be paying for the care. Once their savings fall below that upper threshold, they still pay a contribution until their savings fall to the lower threshold - around £14k. 

Regarding accessing their State Pension, you should have been told how you could have had access. The finance team at the LA told me about getting access to State pension in order to pay care fees contribution. All it took was a phone call to the DWP to set this up. I’m now able to pay towards my stepdad’s fees as his state pension is being paid to me. 

It seems like you e been given some very poor advice. Can you contact the finance team at the LA to discuss this further? 

elsien

OP applied to be appointee but it didn’t come through in time - in my area there’s a 3 month wait following the application to DWP. 
The local authority were also correct in saying that if the person lacked capacity and no LPA then CoP deputyship is the only lawful way to access the bank account/private pension/other assets. 

Regardless of the mechanisms, then any payments should take into account the threshold and reimburse the estate accordingly. Was there a will? The executor (or person applying for letters of administration if no will) needs to write to the financial assessment team with all the figures and requesting a retrospective assessment and any overpayment be reimbursed. Then if no joy, use the complaints procedure. 

msb1234

elsien said:

OP applied to be appointee but it didn’t come through in time - in my area there’s a 3 month wait following the application to DWP. 
The local authority were also correct in saying that if the person lacked capacity and no LPA then CoP deputyship is the only lawful way to access the bank account/private pension/other assets. 

Regardless of the mechanisms, then any payments should take into account the threshold and reimburse the estate accordingly. Was there a will? The executor (or person applying for letters of administration if no will) needs to write to the financial assessment team with all the figures and requesting a retrospective assessment and any overpayment be reimbursed. Then if no joy, use the complaints procedure. 

Blimey! My application was a 30 minute phone call followed 2 days later by a letter confirming the arrangement. In fact, the first payment landed in my account 8 days after the initial phone call! What area are you in?

PoppyBlue

Thank you to you both, I appreciate the replies. 

I'm in Somerset; I called the DWP and the call centre lottery gave me the most helpful, knowledgable man who took 40 minutes to go over everything he possibly could. He needed two further pieces of information from me, which I hadn't received at that point, so he advised me to call back once I had these. When I called back (25 May), I was hung up on after my first 20-minute wait, then after my next 20-minute wait, I had a bored-sounding lady who didn't really understand what I was calling for, but took the information anyway. I've heard nothing since; my grandmother's health deteriorated rapidly around that time, so I spent the time with her and put the fees situation on the back burner. 

As for the executor: he doesn't want to act (also elderly), so I think I'll need to go for letters of administration if I want to try to reclaim the overpaid fees. I've looked through her statements, and at least 10k was taken after she'd already gone down to 12k in the bank, then the subsequent DD failed, and that was when the LA stepped in to pay the fees (she'd already been placed on end of life care, so I'm grateful they didn't attempt to move her at that point). 

I think once I've sorted the executor situation, I'll need to contact the LA for a review. Thanks again, both. 

RAS

Not sure you actually need probate to reclaim this, but it's easy for the executor to resign. They just fill in a form renouncing their executorship.

msb1234

Just to check, what was her monthly income? My stepfather’s monthly income is being taken into account less a weekly allowance hes allowed, so over a year he will have paid £9,600 in fees - but his savings which are under the threshold will not have been touched. 

PoppyBlue

RAS said:

Not sure you actually need probate to reclaim this, but it's easy for the executor to resign. They just fill in a form renouncing their executorship.

Would I not need Letters of Administration to chase the overpayment with the LA? Im not sure if perhaps I'm conflating some things here, having never been in the position before.

I thought LoA was just the method of taking over from the executor who doesn't want to act? And then probate was separate after that, and probably not needed here as she has so little left in her estate? (Her bank states online that probate isn't necessary for amounts under 50k, which this would still be, even if a refund came from the LA.) 

PoppyBlue

msb1234 said:

Just to check, what was her monthly income? My stepfather’s monthly income is being taken into account less a weekly allowance hes allowed, so over a year he will have paid £9,600 in fees - but his savings which are under the threshold will not have been touched. 

It looks to be around £1600 a month, split between State pension and occupational pension, and zero savings/property (she sold her house to pay for her care).

There's possibly an Attendance Allowance amount in the State pension; I tried notifying DWP back in Feb that she would not be self-funding so shouldn't receive it, but I can't tell from her statements whether it's rolled in with State pension. I've not received any paperwork from DWP confirming it's been stopped, so that's making me wonder whether they'll request a repayment, which is another reason for querying the possible LA refund. Basically, not having Power of Attorney made it impossible to deal with anything while she was alive - I'll be sorting my own out as soon as all this is sorted! 

elsien

Is there another executor or just the one? If there's the one and he doesn't want to act then he would need to renounce and then you could ask for the letters of administration. If there's another executor then the older chap could reserve powers if he wanted to. 

PoppyBlue

elsien said:

Is there another executor or just the one? If there's the one and he doesn't want to act then he would need to renounce and then you could ask for the letters of administration. If there's another executor then the older chap could reserve powers if he wanted to. 

Just the one, unfortunately. The renunciation looks straightforward enough. (I might eat those words later, if that goes as well as everything else has in the last year!)