Potential dispute with builder...what to do?

Braeburn1966

Hi, I was wondering if anyone had any advice for me. 
Our builder finished a job for us in January, it had been an overdrawn and messy project and I think we were all glad to be done with it. In November he'd sent us a remaining bill and the additional fees came to about £2,300. He's very vocal about how much he hates doing things in writing but it was itemised and looked okay to us. When he finished the final work we waited for the final final bill in case there were extra little bits to be added. We didn't hear from him again until May and when we did he said he was following up on his recent email re: the final bill. We hadn't received the 'recent email' (and when we asked to see it he ignored us), so we were already wondering if things were going to start getting weird with him again as we started going through the charges. He'd added 5K to the final bill "as discussed" to reflect the increase in material costs. 

We replied that we never discussed the 5K, and to the contrary we remember him saying that material prices were going up and he was going to have to start charging clients more money, but that he wouldn't do that to us because he began work in May 2021 and he wanted to honour his original quote.  After 4 weeks he replied to our email giving a slightly disorganised reply listing all the things that went wrong with the project (it was delayed for 3 weeks because our slightly odd neighbour refused to let the third party wall surveyor some into her home and threatened to re ) 

Braeburn1966

*sorry I pressed send before I was finished* 

...threatened to request a Right of Light survey. At this point the Building work was meant to have started, so after consulting with our builder, we agreed to scale back the size of our loft extension to appease her). Essentially, the builder is now saying that the delays had cost him money that well exceeded 5K but in good faith he wasn't charging us for that, but he does expect us to pay the 5K. 

I'm reluctant to pay it. I want to stress that I don't want to avoid paying anything that I should pay, but this feels like he's just trying his luck. To put things bluntly, we've been people pleasing wusses during this project, and he's had us over the barrel during the whole thing. He had a lot of other jobs going on at the same time as ours, and he used the delay we had with our neighbour to push back when we asked him to focus on getting our roof back on. He also had some personal issues during the project which we were really understanding about, but they delayed things further. The project was meant to be finished in July and it didn't actually finish until January, and the whole time we just grovelled and paid what were were asked. At one point he shouted at and was very threatening to my partner, and we just had to take it because we were so desperate for him to finish the project. 

I think he thinks he can just demand the 5K and we'll be wimps and pay it. But I'm tempted to stick up for myself this time and seek advice. 

I wonder if I should just pay what I think we really owe (there's an updated itemised bill, it's roughly 2.5K), but say that we'll only pay the 5K after seeking advice. Do you think that's a good idea? 

One extra thing to note, is that when we had to scale back the size of the build, the builder said that he has already paid for materials that he would no longer be able to use (steel girders I believe). We always expected to pay for those (we expected them to be about 1K) and kept asking him how much they cost. In the end he said he wouldn't charge us for them (which we thought was weird, as we didn't get the sense he was the kind of guy who would let us have that kind of freebie). In his most recent email he has included this cost as one of the things he didn't charge us for in good faith. I'm not sure I believe he ever bought them. My partner wants to say that we will pay for those, we just want the receipt, and we want to actually get the girders so we could look into selling them for scrap metal or something. Perhaps that is petty though?

2bFrank

Depends on what was agreed, there is always increases that happen for things not foreseen, it a sounds like a few issues happened on your project (it being messy and delays due to neighbour).

Also materials have gone up dramatically (not just a few quid but a vast amount). When did he quote and when did he start work? if he quoted and started in May 21 then he would have prepared for the costs for then but if he quoted a few months earlier and then started in May then the different is massive, if he could source the materials (some wood, plasterboard and actual plaster was a nightmare to get hold of, and still is in some parts)

I think its all on the scale of relativity, if the project had delays not due to the builder, and unforeseen issues, plus the extra costs in materials then maybe 5k sounds reasonable. I think you need to speak to him properly in person and try and discuss the issues, see where the increases came from 5k just for materials seems on the higher side (if he quoted and started in May), but really does depend on the actual project.

Braeburn1966

Thank you for your reply. 

He quoted us on 22 March 2021. Work was meant to begin early May but actually started late May. 

As he hated putting things in writing, and we were so mortified/stressed by the problems our Neighbour had caused we were just keen to follow his lead on everything and keep him happy, which I regret now. I guess I need to understand how verbal agreements work in our favour and when they don’t.  He agreed verbally not to charge us for materials, and there is nothing in writing to say that he would be billing us for them. So surely we can argue that? 

We ended up getting to know the clients from one of the other jobs he was doing while he did ours, and he made it very clear to them that he would be charging for the increased price in materials, so they paid it happily. But he didn’t start work on theirs until July 2021. I guess I could find out how much he charged them, as it was a very similar job. 

FreeBear

On the subject of steels - The price has almost doubled over the last year for most structural steel. I even know of one case where a supplier had been ringing a customer offering to buy back an RSJ because of shortages. I'm reasonably confident that if your builder would have found a ready market for any unused steel, especially if he had kept hold of any certification. By all means call him out on that extra charge. Same for any other materials that had been ordered and not used. Unless something was supplied as a custom fitting, materials can be used on other jobs.

Braeburn1966

Great, thank you for that!

DRP

It sounds like the materials are significant part of the extra bill. Anything paid for and not used in your job needs to come back to you! 

Regarding the rest of the costs, try and take a dispassionate view (post them up here if you like) of whether they are justifiable, and then decide whether the fight is worth it.

Section62

FreeBear said:

On the subject of steels - The price has almost doubled over the last year for most structural steel. I even know of one case where a supplier had been ringing a customer offering to buy back an RSJ because of shortages. I'm reasonably confident that if your builder would have found a ready market for any unused steel, especially if he had kept hold of any certification. By all means call him out on that extra charge.

That is contingent on the steel being 'unused' in the sense of it having a use on a different job.  It is one thing having good lengths of plain UB/UC in the same condition as they came from the mill, another if a fabricator has cut/drilled/welded/coated them for a specific purpose.

Braeburn1966 said:

My partner wants to say that we will pay for those, we just want the receipt, and we want to actually get the girders so we could look into selling them for scrap metal or something. Perhaps that is petty though?

Scrap value will be very significantly less than cost price.  You'd need to arrange (and pay for) delivery and have somewhere secure to keep them until collected by the scrap merchant you are dealing with.  Leaving them in your front garden risks a visit from the scrap fairies.  Overall not a great idea.

If I understand correctly the builder hasn't charged you anything for the steelwork, but has just included it in a list of things he's not charged you for?  I'm not sure where the 'wrong' is in that - he may have had to pay some or all of the cost depending on how far the order progressed.

When you say "I'm not sure I believe he ever bought them." you do need to take into account there will usually be costs involved whether or not the steelwork is delivered to site.  E.g. if an order is placed but cancelled then the supplier may charge (/pass on) a restocking fee.  If the spec of your job changed such that the steel was no longer needed then it would be reasonable for the builder to pass these costs on.

benson1980

A fair few builders (and other tradespersons) fall into the category of well meaning, reasonably competent at their trade, but absolutely terrible at actually running a business- with wildly optimistic timescales on projects they take on, the invoicing side of things not being clear, and in some cases associated total costs of works. 

I'd weigh up whether the itemised costs appear reasonable despite the fact that it appears evident the job was managed poorly, the costs of this builder versus other quotes I had received, and if I was fundamentally happy with the work carried out.