Euro car parks faulty exit picture grounds for appeal?

Takeshi_Kovacs

Long story short I was delivering a parcel to a local pub (where I am also a regular customer) in my work van as I have for many years, they had introduced this ...scheme. I received a letter with a fine, despite trying to appeal to the landlord's decency he decided he'd rather make a couple of quid form this fine and lose my custom... anyway, the letter I received from Euro car parks showed the exit pic as a black square (entry pic was clear), it doesn't really prove when I left the car park as far as I can tell. 

Would this be grounds for an appeal? Am I best appealing vie Euro car parks or would you recommend I do some research on using POPLA (only just learned of them).

thanks

Coupon-mad

As the date of event was 9/6/2022 what is the issue date of sending the NTK?

Does it include the POFA 9(2)f warning?

Fruitcake

It is not a fine.

I suggest you write to the landlord/pub owner/manager/brewery CEO in your work capacity and tell them that the location is now barred and you will no longer be making deliveries there. 

In addition, state that from a personal point of view, you used to be a regular customer there you can no longer afford to drink there if it comes with a £100 surcharge every time, from an unregulated private parking company.

Do complain to your MP as well.

You should also tell your employer (unless you are self employed) that you will not visit the site again, and explain why. Point out that UK MPs across all parties have referred to these parking companies as rogues, scammers, and bloodsuckers in open parliamentary debate. Warn all your friends and colleagues about the site as well.

Takeshi_Kovacs

Coupon-mad said:

As the date of event was 9/6/2022 what is the issue date of sending the NTK?

Does it include the POFA 9(2)f warning?

I believe it does include that warning, ill attach a pic of that part.

So the issue date is 15/06/22, it was sent to my employer's HQ, I received it only about 5 days ago due to my employer (Royal Mail) being pretty slow and inefficient in dealing with pretty much everything. We have GPS systems on the vans and on our PDAs used for deliveries, guessing that's how they worked out it was me. 

Fruitcake said:

Thanks, good advice..exactly what I said to them yesterday, they seemed to be completely unsympathetic. When I told them I was delivering (and trying to make sure the staff member who didn't use the proper address got her item)  the manager's response was "Yes, but you weren't a customer", didn't care about losing regular custom, "that's up to you, sir" - I was basically talking to a robot. I'll be getting in touch with the owner tho, not sure they'll see the logic in alienating companies serving their business and regular customers. The pub, The Black Bull in Gatacre were supposed to email me back today with a decision on withdrawing the fine but I've heard nothing, seemed unlikely anyway with their attitude. 

There are around 70 guys and girls in our depot, and we tend to stick together on this sort of stuff, so going forward it's looking like they're going to have a lot of issues receiving their deliveries. I certainly won't be risking delivering to them. 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees these companies as parasitic leeches, really bad form for a business to use them imo, and even worse to enforce fines on people delivering to you. We're switching to the Brown Cow pub from now, it's also a locally-owned family-run place who don't try to increase revenue by fleecing customers.

It's mind-blowingly short-sighted, so they might make 10/20 quid from my fine, but they're going to lose many times that from me withdrawing my custom, not to mention them having to retrieve their deliveries. Greed tends to blind people. 

Takeshi_Kovacs

Thanks for the replies... Part of me just wants to pay this. We're currently buying a house and I don't want to jeopardise anything. Total scumbags tho, life's hard enough, we work really hard and like everyone the cost of living is hitting up.... then you get stung by these rats and its just sickening.

Coupon-mad

Hang about.

You are not the registered keeper and that NTK isn't addressed to you?  Just passed to you even though your name isn't on it.

This is important and could win you the appeal.

Takeshi_Kovacs

Coupon-mad said:

Hang about.

You are not the registered keeper and that NTK isn't addressed to you?  Just passed yo you even though your name isn't on it.

This is important and could win you the appeal.

Indeed, it is addressed to my employer and I am not the registered keeper. Although I know a lot of workplaces will just pay the fine if it's ignored then take it from your pay. 

How could that help me in the appeal?

Takeshi_Kovacs

Coupon-mad said:

Hang about.

You are not the registered keeper and that NTK isn't addressed to you?  Just passed yo you even though your name isn't on it.

This is important and could win you the appeal.

Common sense has prevailed I think... check this out... no word from the pub but I just went to get the appeal going and got this message.

Fruitcake

You are not currently liable as you are not the registered keeper, and the PPC do not currently know your name.

You should instruct your employer to send the transfer of liability slip on the bottom of the NTK to the PPC, naming you as the hirer/lessee of the vehicle.
Then you should await a NTH in your own name.

If your employer fails to do this, they are legally liable for the charge, not you. Unless and until they transfer liability, this is nothing to do with you, and they will remain liable for the charge, and could end up in court as a result. They really need to understand this ten year old law.

If you are a member of a trade union, your union rep' should be all over this and ban all drivers from visiting the site in question, as well as hammering home to your employers that individual drivers hirer/lessees/day to day keepers cannot legally be held responsible unless liability is transferred to the hirer/lessee/day to day keeper.

Every time a package arrives for the pub, they should be sent a letter by post telling them to come and collect it in person, explaining the reason why, reminding them they will need proof of ID, and warning then that if they breach the parking Ts and Cs on site they may be liable for a £100 parking charge if they park incorrectly. (Note the word "may". It doesn't actually have to be true).

You employer (and union rep if you have one) needs to read the appeal court case of Jopson vs Homeguard where the judge said that loading and unloading is not parking.

Takeshi_Kovacs

Top advice guys. Much appreciated. Hopefully, I never need to refer back to this thread but It is bookmarked just in case myself or any of the other posties fall into these traps. More and more pubs are putting these up around us, even some private residential streets have these systems. It's gross. In future, I'm not going to risk delivering to residential streets/businesses with these systems [where I notice them]. 

Coupon-mad

Quite right. You sussed it.

Avoid private car parks.

You and your colleagues hopefully all know you ARE allowed to park on street on double yellows to unload?

It's what DYL are there for. Use them, or bays on street nearby. In London, for example, you can unload in a permit bay on street and just need to make if obvious you are unloading (hazard lights on, note on the dash  - all good - NO PCN).

Glad it was cancelled but also that you can now tell your colleagues how to handle these.

If they are just handed a PCN by the employer, just fill in their own name and address on the transfer of liability slip on the back. Sign it off in the name of the employer and post that to the PPC. Wait for the NTH to then be posted to you and you can then (if it's a BPA firm) appeal and win at POPLA by coming here. 

NEVER DO YOUR OWN FIRST APPEAL SAYING WHO WAS DRIVING!  Tell your colleagues.

Also - really important - please come back and do the Public Consultation!  All of you, colleagues and family. You and all PPC victims on this forum are needed, read this and the link:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6345732/secure-parking-solutions-ntk/p6

Please don't miss out. The PPC gravy train will only be over by next year, if enough real people respond robustly.

This final Consultation is likely to be open within weeks (last year's was in August) and it really is the very last chance to stop the greedy industry from blocking and bullying the Government as well as individuals.