T5 Drop off PCN - APCOA - leased car

adslcfc

Hi,

I have read the various templates however my case is slightly odd. I lease a car through BMW finance and a couple of weeks ago I did a drop off at T5 where I just flat out forgot to pay the £5 charge, I called BMW to ask what the process was and they said they hadn't received the PCN for June however there was one for early March (also T5 drop off) another that I clearly just forgot about (do a nice thing for the in-laws and end up with multiple fines!).

I asked what the process was and they said they sent a letter back to APCOA passing the liability to me however they used an old address to do so. They then got back in contact with APCOA and told them their mistake and gave my correct address. Now as of June I have never received any correspondence. BMW forwarded me the PCN, I went on the APCOA website to search it and is says the £80 is outstanding and is being passed to debt collectors.

I am trying to understand where I stand considering I only know about this through calling BMW for the more recent PCN (which they have not yet received) and have not received any correspondence in my name to my address?

Similarly, how I should handle the second impending fine. It was my mistake not paying so I understand why the fine is there however I do not want to pay £80 for the first one as I have not had a chance to pay the reduced £40 given correspondence was not sent to me.

Thanks

Coupon-mad

You won't be paying either of them. It's only APCOA!

These are not fines and not a single person here pays APCOA parking charges (to be clear, we DO pay parking fees/tariffs to park, which is not the same thing).

Paying £40 is not a 'chance'! Not a bargain to hope for. You don't PAY this. Nor do you write saying who was driving in any response you make. Be careful. You are at all times the lessee/hirer of that car.

Being named as the hirer is not the same as being the driver.  And that's vital in this case.

You do need to hook them in your direction to the right postal address, though. Both PCNs. Can't have the BMW address being contacted by APCOA nor their agents, as they BMW might stupidly pay on receiving DRA letters.

See the NEWBIES FAQS thread for how to appeal a lease/hire car case - the specially worded appeal by @Edna_Basher

adslcfc

Thanks for the response. Can I just check a couple of things please;

- I still have not had any official correspondence to my address so do I contact APCOA or not? I have a copy of the PCN they sent to BMW in March only.
- Can I use this exact same defence for both PCNs (one was only 10 days ago so BMW have not yet received anything)
- The below response makes the most sense in this situation however there is a picture of my vehicle with a driver and passenger (quite blurry to be fair) leaving T5 so not sure I can use words like "alleged" or even say I was not the driver as surely lying is not a good idea either?

Dear APCOA Ltd

RE: PCN No. xxxxxxxxx

I would like you to know I (as the registered keeper of the vehicle) I have not received any official correspondence from you in regard to my liability for a charge related to a parking infraction that you state took place on xx March 2022 at Heathrow Terminal 5 drop off.

I wish to outline my current position in reference to your PCN.

Keepers Liability and POFA 2012
As stated in paragraph 13(2) of POFA 2012...

"The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given—

(a) A statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;

(b) A copy of the hire agreement; and

(c) A copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

AND

Paragraph 14(2) and (3) of POFA 2012:

(2) The conditions are that —
(a) The creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper;
(b) A period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed; and
(c) The vehicle was not a stolen vehicle at the beginning of the period of parking to which the unpaid parking charges relate.
(3) In sub-paragraph (2)(a) “the relevant period” is the period of 21 days beginning with the day after that on which the documents required by paragraph 13(2) are given to the creditor.[/I]

- You were required to send this information to me (as Registered Keeper) within 21 days after receiving them from the lease/hire company (BMW).
- You were required to send these documents to me no later than 49 days after the PCN was sent to the hire company, which was xx March.
- Therefore I should have received these documents no later than xx May 2022.
- As this has not happened, you cannot use POFA to assume keeper liability. There is more than one driver of the vehicle which you placed a PCN on.

In Summary...
- I wish to confirm to you I was NOT the driver of the vehicle.
- I am not obliged to disclose the identity of the driver and this does not affect my liability in this matter .
- As NGP Ltd has not complied with paragraphs 13 (2) and 14 (2) of POFA 2012, you cannot rely on the provisions of the Act and hold me liable as keeper.
- You will need to pursue this claim with the driver once you identify them.

Further Questions
To begin our discussions, as this is purely a claim under a purported contract, and you have no statutory footing to issue penalties, I wish to make you aware of the following details and require the specific information so that I can assess the validity of your claim:

1. Who is the party that contracted with APCOA Ltd for the provision of their services at the site of the alleged to have taken place in Cardiff (Ferry Road Retail Park)?
2. What is the full legal identity of the landowner?
3. As you are not the landowner, please provide a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of your contract with the landholder that demonstrate that NGP Ltd have the authority of the landowner to both issue parking charges and legislate in your own name or on behalf of the landowner .
4. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? - Yes or no?
5. If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract, please provide justification of this sum.
6. Is your charge based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking? - Yes or no?
7. If the charge is based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking please, provide a valid VAT invoice as you make no mention on VAT in any correspondence.
8. The signage to the site (from a seated position in the vehicle as it enters the car park is impossible to read and any specific rules regarding stopping on yellow lines being strictly prohibited at any time. Please provide a copy of the sign that purportedly forms the basis of the contract entered into by the driver for my records.
9. I believe the parking attendant who took photos of this vehicle (as the driver sat momentarily with the engine running on double yellow lines) made no attempt to make the driver aware he should move the car or face a parking charge. It is the responsibility of the claimant (NGP Ltd) to mitigate their losses, in this instance I believe they failed to do so and thus invalidates your claim. I refer you to the county court judgement in VCS vs. Ibbotson (2012):

Link: http://nebula.wsimg.com/e3da92cb966c72de63ec1f98605c2954?AccessKeyId=4CB8F2392A09CF228A46&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Next Steps
When I receive a full reply to all these questions i will be in a position to be able to furnish you with a full response.

Alternatively you can cancel your charge, or I will happily wait for my day in court to challenge this PCN as the registered keeper of the vehicle.

Note: I have contacted the landowner to strongly protest in writing the basis for this PCN.

Yours

KeithP

Your letter to APCOA starts...

I would like you to know I (as the registered keeper of the vehicle)...

and includes...

You were required to send this information to me (as Registered Keeper)...

Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle?

Umkomaas

Are you sure you've read through what you've copied and pasted there?  References to 'car park', NGP, a Cardiff car park address, Ibbotson (old hat and nothing to do with your case), double yellow lines, attendant taking photos? Have you really complained to the landowner, because you say you have?  Looks a bit of a dog's breakfast. 

adslcfc

My initial questions needed to be answered before I went in and fully edited the response, at no point did I say this was my final response, hence my asking for guidance on this forum.

- I still have not had any official correspondence to my address so do I contact APCOA or not? I have a copy of the PCN they sent to BMW in March only.
- Can I use this exact same defence for both PCNs (one was only 10 days ago so BMW have not yet received anything)
- The below response makes the most sense in this situation however there is a picture of my vehicle with a driver and passenger (quite blurry to be fair) leaving T5 so not sure I can use words like "alleged" or even say I was not the driver as surely lying is not a good idea either?

I was referred to several responses by Edna Basher and believe this one makes the most sense but needed clarity before finalising it.

We are not all experts in this, hence asking for assistance. 

adslcfc

KeithP said:

Your letter to APCOA starts...

I would like you to know I (as the registered keeper of the vehicle)...

and includes...

You were required to send this information to me (as Registered Keeper)...

Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle?

Thanks Keith, this was the stock response I was referred to, I am not the registered keeper of the vehicle, BMW Finance are.

Umkomaas

I'd write to APCOA (in regard to the first charge) to confirm that you are the hirer of the vehicle, to inform them that BMW have advised them of this, but unfortunately provided APCOA with an incorrect address. Ask them to reissue the Notice to Hirer (NtH) to your current address for you to deal with. Send them a copy of a utility bill with your name and (new) address showing on it. Come back when you have this for further advice in dealing with it. 

For your (potential) second ticket, write to BMW, tell them under no circumstances to pay APCOA, but to formally transfer liability to you as the hirer, and to ensure that the correct address (repeat it to them) is used in them writing to APCOA. Deal with that PCN once you've received the NtH. 

There will undoubtedly be technical issues with both NtHs that will mean you not being liable for the charges.

adslcfc

Thank you, I have emailed for the first ticket and will await the second and revert back once I hear something. I really appreciate your assistance.

Coupon-mad

Are you sure the hire firm/BMW gave the right postal address for you for the new one?

adslcfc

I spoke to BMW this morning and they had not received any PCN for the 2nd one as it only took place 10 days ago but they definitely have the right address on file and they said they do not automatically pay, they just pass liability to the hirer.

Ironically I only found out about the March PCN by asking about the process for the June one.