Howden's Kitchen Design Cocked-Up

LostMyMSEAccount

Uhh, I'm fairly confident I've got no recourse but for a free forum post, I guess it's worth it.

I'm currently having a kitchen installed. It was designed by Howdens (Newcastle-under-Lyme). I popped down to speak to the fitter today who has informed that this is the worst he's ever had measurements/design-wise (too tight). The design he was provided was not particularly great detail wise (usually he's given 3D printouts etc, he was just given the specs), but enough to work with. However the measurements are wrong in several places and now this is starting to cause issues. Up to now, he's been able to accommodate the missteps in measurements which he says is fairly common practice, but now we've got to a point where essentially, he's now had to create his own 'DIY' corner because one of the measurements is 5mm too big/out which means the corner supplied will simply not fit. Two of the doors currently do not close correctly, which he's said he should be able to accommodate by nudging it to the right.  In the worst case however, he's mentioned he may need to shave an edge and spray it.

This seems absolutely ridiculous. Before anyone says "sounds like a bad kitchen fitter", this guy is widely recommended and has stacks of high praise. 

I've spent a good chunk of money on this kitchen. The parts alone have cost me £13k and that doesn't include the fitting.

I've sent an e-mail to the designer informing her of the problems and have asked to discuss this. I expect she will say "bad fitter". I've looked on Howdens website and there's very little about poor designs.

Do I have any actual recourse? I'm guessing not. Is this another one of those victories for the "Buyer Beware, sure, it's a company but you've got no protection, this is Britain.... oh and make sure you pay your taxes on time otherwise we'll come after you".

If you can't tell.... I'm mildly frustrated  

Sandtree

Who provided the measurements? 
Have you checked if it is or isn't 5mm out? What exactly is "out"? Depending on what's out and the size is it within tolerance? 
What's the issues with the doors causing them not to close?
Was it a Howden's designer or someone else?

The problems with the likes of Kitchens is that there can be 3-4 parties involved with the designer, manufacturer, fitter and customer and each can make mistakes that cause problems for the rest and so its critical to see exactly what's gone wrong where

Aylesbury_Duck

LostMyMSEAccount said:

Uhh, I'm fairly confident I've got no recourse but for a free forum post, I guess it's worth it.

I'm currently having a kitchen installed. It was designed by Howdens (Newcastle-under-Lyme). I popped down to speak to the fitter today who has informed that this is the worst he's ever had measurements/design-wise (too tight). The design he was provided was not particularly great detail wise (usually he's given 3D printouts etc, he was just given the specs), but enough to work with. However the measurements are wrong in several places and now this is starting to cause issues. Up to now, he's been able to accommodate the missteps in measurements which he says is fairly common practice, but now we've got to a point where essentially, he's now had to create his own 'DIY' corner because one of the measurements is 5mm too big/out which means the corner supplied will simply not fit. Two of the doors currently do not close correctly, which he's said he should be able to accommodate by nudging it to the right.  In the worst case however, he's mentioned he may need to shave an edge and spray it.

This seems absolutely ridiculous. Before anyone says "sounds like a bad kitchen fitter", this guy is widely recommended and has stacks of high praise. 

I've spent a good chunk of money on this kitchen. The parts alone have cost me £13k and that doesn't include the fitting.

I've sent an e-mail to the designer informing her of the problems and have asked to discuss this. I expect she will say "bad fitter". I've looked on Howdens website and there's very little about poor designs.

Do I have any actual recourse? I'm guessing not. Is this another one of those victories for the "Buyer Beware, sure, it's a company but you've got no protection, this is Britain.... oh and make sure you pay your taxes on time otherwise we'll come after you".

If you can't tell.... I'm mildly frustrated  

Who has the contract with Howdens for the design?  You, or your fitter?  If it's the fitter, then it's his problem to solve, and your consumer rights lay with him.

If you had the design done by Howdens yourself and appointed the fitter independently, then you need to establish it's the design that's definitely the problem, rather than the units themselves or the fitter.  It sounds as if the designer has tried to squeeze units in to a space that is slightly too small, is that the case?

You do have recourse if someone other than you has made an error,  but you need to explain exactly who holds what contract here, for each of the design, supply and fitting.  You'll then need to establish exactly what's wrong - the original measurements (who supplied them?), the design, the units themselves or the fitting.

LostMyMSEAccount

Sandtree said:

Who provided the measurements? 
Have you checked if it is or isn't 5mm out? What exactly is "out"? Depending on what's out and the size is it within tolerance? 
What's the issues with the doors causing them not to close?
Was it a Howden's designer or someone else?

The problems with the likes of Kitchens is that there can be 3-4 parties involved with the designer, manufacturer, fitter and customer and each can make mistakes that cause problems for the rest and so its critical to see exactly what's gone wrong where

Thanks for your reply. Howden's provided the measurements. Howden's provded the design. It was one of the more straightforward kitchens, I would have thought. Howdens sent a designer, they measured up, designed it. We went through a review process so it was as I wanted and then this was sent over to my fitter. The design and review process was painful enough as the original invoice they sent had glaring holes in it. I resolved these for them, but I perhaps should have stopped and gone to a different Howdens as the designer clearly didn't know what they were doing. There is a corner post which simply would not fit. I believe this was a good 5mm out. Option 1 was to abandon the job and wait for Howdens to resolve this adding additional costs. Option 2 was to take a piece of off-cut and create a DIY corner, which is what he's done for now. This could be rectified of course, but it's not ideal. Two of the doors are too tight. They will not close or open without resistance. The fitter is going to try and use what little remaining space there is to see if they will fit, but ultimately, he thinks the only solution (other than getting a smaller door from Howdens taking up time and additional costs) is to plane the back edge of the door by around 1mm and spraying it. As this is the back edge of the door, it won't be noticeable but it also means the door is now non-standard and therefore any future doors would require the same modification, which is frustrating.

Aylesbury_Duck said:

LostMyMSEAccount said:

Uhh, I'm fairly confident I've got no recourse but for a free forum post, I guess it's worth it.

I'm currently having a kitchen installed. It was designed by Howdens (Newcastle-under-Lyme). I popped down to speak to the fitter today who has informed that this is the worst he's ever had measurements/design-wise (too tight). The design he was provided was not particularly great detail wise (usually he's given 3D printouts etc, he was just given the specs), but enough to work with. However the measurements are wrong in several places and now this is starting to cause issues. Up to now, he's been able to accommodate the missteps in measurements which he says is fairly common practice, but now we've got to a point where essentially, he's now had to create his own 'DIY' corner because one of the measurements is 5mm too big/out which means the corner supplied will simply not fit. Two of the doors currently do not close correctly, which he's said he should be able to accommodate by nudging it to the right.  In the worst case however, he's mentioned he may need to shave an edge and spray it.

This seems absolutely ridiculous. Before anyone says "sounds like a bad kitchen fitter", this guy is widely recommended and has stacks of high praise. 

I've spent a good chunk of money on this kitchen. The parts alone have cost me £13k and that doesn't include the fitting.

I've sent an e-mail to the designer informing her of the problems and have asked to discuss this. I expect she will say "bad fitter". I've looked on Howdens website and there's very little about poor designs.

Do I have any actual recourse? I'm guessing not. Is this another one of those victories for the "Buyer Beware, sure, it's a company but you've got no protection, this is Britain.... oh and make sure you pay your taxes on time otherwise we'll come after you".

If you can't tell.... I'm mildly frustrated  

Who has the contract with Howdens for the design?  You, or your fitter?  If it's the fitter, then it's his problem to solve, and your consumer rights lay with him.

If you had the design done by Howdens yourself and appointed the fitter independently, then you need to establish it's the design that's definitely the problem, rather than the units themselves or the fitter.  It sounds as if the designer has tried to squeeze units in to a space that is slightly too small, is that the case?

You do have recourse if someone other than you has made an error,  but you need to explain exactly who holds what contract here, for each of the design, supply and fitting.  You'll then need to establish exactly what's wrong - the original measurements (who supplied them?), the design, the units themselves or the fitting.

I suspect the contract is with the fitter and Howden's. Technically he's paid for the kitchen. I've paid him, but the payment to Howden's came from his account. Howden's designed the kitchen yes and what you've described is exactly what has happened. The designer has tried to include a door that is simply too big. Unfortunately, with the other items now installed we have an option of planing around 1mm of said door, or waiting for new parts and ultimately moving it all around again to make it fit per a new design. I've spoken to Howdens and the designer. Very apologetic of course.... but I asked what they planned to do in regards to recourse... their statement to me was "we don't have a formal policy on this. Kitchen designs do change and you cannot account always account for measurement error, as there can be differences in walls etc". No recourse from Howdens, it would appear.

LostMyMSEAccount

I've dropped the designer an e-mail and asked if there is any motivation from herself/Howden's to resolve this or have they washed their hands now the payment for the kitchen has hit their bank account.

It's disappointing. I've spent a serious good chunk of money on this kitchen and while I hope that I will be happy (even if certain modifications have been made) when it's installed, I should not have to be compromising on things. 

I guess measurements aren't an exact science....

Aylesbury_Duck

LostMyMSEAccount said:

Sandtree said:

Who provided the measurements? 
Have you checked if it is or isn't 5mm out? What exactly is "out"? Depending on what's out and the size is it within tolerance? 
What's the issues with the doors causing them not to close?
Was it a Howden's designer or someone else?

The problems with the likes of Kitchens is that there can be 3-4 parties involved with the designer, manufacturer, fitter and customer and each can make mistakes that cause problems for the rest and so its critical to see exactly what's gone wrong where

Thanks for your reply. Howden's provided the measurements. Howden's provded the design. It was one of the more straightforward kitchens, I would have thought. Howdens sent a designer, they measured up, designed it. We went through a review process so it was as I wanted and then this was sent over to my fitter. The design and review process was painful enough as the original invoice they sent had glaring holes in it. I resolved these for them, but I perhaps should have stopped and gone to a different Howdens as the designer clearly didn't know what they were doing. There is a corner post which simply would not fit. I believe this was a good 5mm out. Option 1 was to abandon the job and wait for Howdens to resolve this adding additional costs. Option 2 was to take a piece of off-cut and create a DIY corner, which is what he's done for now. This could be rectified of course, but it's not ideal. Two of the doors are too tight. They will not close or open without resistance. The fitter is going to try and use what little remaining space there is to see if they will fit, but ultimately, he thinks the only solution (other than getting a smaller door from Howdens taking up time and additional costs) is to plane the back edge of the door by around 1mm and spraying it. As this is the back edge of the door, it won't be noticeable but it also means the door is now non-standard and therefore any future doors would require the same modification, which is frustrating.

Aylesbury_Duck said:

LostMyMSEAccount said:

Uhh, I'm fairly confident I've got no recourse but for a free forum post, I guess it's worth it.

I'm currently having a kitchen installed. It was designed by Howdens (Newcastle-under-Lyme). I popped down to speak to the fitter today who has informed that this is the worst he's ever had measurements/design-wise (too tight). The design he was provided was not particularly great detail wise (usually he's given 3D printouts etc, he was just given the specs), but enough to work with. However the measurements are wrong in several places and now this is starting to cause issues. Up to now, he's been able to accommodate the missteps in measurements which he says is fairly common practice, but now we've got to a point where essentially, he's now had to create his own 'DIY' corner because one of the measurements is 5mm too big/out which means the corner supplied will simply not fit. Two of the doors currently do not close correctly, which he's said he should be able to accommodate by nudging it to the right.  In the worst case however, he's mentioned he may need to shave an edge and spray it.

This seems absolutely ridiculous. Before anyone says "sounds like a bad kitchen fitter", this guy is widely recommended and has stacks of high praise. 

I've spent a good chunk of money on this kitchen. The parts alone have cost me £13k and that doesn't include the fitting.

I've sent an e-mail to the designer informing her of the problems and have asked to discuss this. I expect she will say "bad fitter". I've looked on Howdens website and there's very little about poor designs.

Do I have any actual recourse? I'm guessing not. Is this another one of those victories for the "Buyer Beware, sure, it's a company but you've got no protection, this is Britain.... oh and make sure you pay your taxes on time otherwise we'll come after you".

If you can't tell.... I'm mildly frustrated  

Who has the contract with Howdens for the design?  You, or your fitter?  If it's the fitter, then it's his problem to solve, and your consumer rights lay with him.

If you had the design done by Howdens yourself and appointed the fitter independently, then you need to establish it's the design that's definitely the problem, rather than the units themselves or the fitter.  It sounds as if the designer has tried to squeeze units in to a space that is slightly too small, is that the case?

You do have recourse if someone other than you has made an error,  but you need to explain exactly who holds what contract here, for each of the design, supply and fitting.  You'll then need to establish exactly what's wrong - the original measurements (who supplied them?), the design, the units themselves or the fitting.

I suspect the contract is with the fitter and Howden's. Technically he's paid for the kitchen. I've paid him, but the payment to Howden's came from his account. Howden's designed the kitchen yes and what you've described is exactly what has happened. The designer has tried to include a door that is simply too big. Unfortunately, with the other items now installed we have an option of planing around 1mm of said door, or waiting for new parts and ultimately moving it all around again to make it fit per a new design. I've spoken to Howdens and the designer. Very apologetic of course.... but I asked what they planned to do in regards to recourse... their statement to me was "we don't have a formal policy on this. Kitchen designs do change and you cannot account always account for measurement error, as there can be differences in walls etc". No recourse from Howdens, it would appear.

You don't have any consumer rights with Howdens, then.  Your consumer rights rest with the fitter.  The good news is that it's therefore his problem to resolve, rather than you having to resolve a problem with Howdens and then deal with the fitter.  It's often better to have someone supply and fit, for this reason.  You don't have to worry about consequential fitting costs arising from defective specifications or products - the fitter deals with it all.

Tell your fitter what resolution you want, and withhold some of his final payment until it's resolved.

Aylesbury_Duck

LostMyMSEAccount said:

I've dropped the designer an e-mail and asked if there is any motivation from herself/Howden's to resolve this or have they washed their hands now the payment for the kitchen has hit their bank account.

It's disappointing. I've spent a serious good chunk of money on this kitchen and while I hope that I will be happy (even if certain modifications have been made) when it's installed, I should not have to be compromising on things. 

I guess measurements aren't an exact science....

Sorry, missed this later post.  As described earlier, you have no contract with Howdens so technically, they don't have to work with you at all.   You've dealing with the wrong party - it's your fitter who appears responsible.

Edited to say: Actually, I'd describe your fitter as accountable.  Howdens' design might be responsible for the problem, but your fitter is accountable for the situation and the solution.  

TELLIT01

Is the problem possibly not with Howdens design or the installer but caused by uneven walls?  5mm is a tiny amount and could easily be caused by that.  The designer wouldn't do measurements every few centimetres up the wall, but should also have allowed a little for unevenness.

LostMyMSEAccount

I'm going to have a conversation with the fitter tomorrow. I suspect their resolution will be either Option 1 or 2, as I posted earlier.

Like TELLIT01 alludes to, the issue is that there's no tolerance built into the design. Whether that's the fitters issue to deal with or the designers issue to account for, I guess is open to interpretation. 

I will have a conversation with him tomorrow. Frustrating day though

Grumpy_chap

LostMyMSEAccount said:

5mm too big/out 

That really is within the tolerance of measurement, slightly not quite 90 degree corner, and I would expect the fitter could resolve.

Mr.Generous

On some kitchens the colour match end panels are 3mm thicker than the std carcase panels, and on some they clad on over the existing carcase side panels. I've messed up with this myself on a tight run with colour match either side of a cooker hood. If this is the case you might be able to swap out back to std panels and save the extra width as one option. I noticed my design had colour match clad on panels so I used the origional end panel as a template to turn the clad on panel into a carcase panel by drilling all the required holes while the 2 panels were clamped together. (fitter will get this if you don't follow) Thus I could ditch the two carcase panels of 15mm each and it all fitted with a colour match fillet at the end of the run to close it off.

Long shot I know, but worth a look.