eBuyer return Hell - Denied refund

longjohnjohnson

Manxman_in_exile said:

longjohnjohnson said:

Quecky said:

Jenni_D said:

Quecky said:

Jenni_D said:

The chargeback will probably happen very quickly ... but the seller has 45 days to challenge it.

If they do so - and succeed - then your course of last resort is a Letter Before Claim to eBuyer followed by a small claim via MCOL.

Okay. RE Letter Before claim and small claim via MCOL. 

Is it worth getting a solicitor to do this process? 

No - that's the point of MCOL / small claims. You can't claim any legal expenses, and employing a solicitor to do this would wipe out anything you won in the claim. eBuyer may well simply cave in on receipt of the LBC. If an actual claim is filed then they may ignore it and you get a default judgment. A claim value of £700 (plus court fees) is eligible for escalation to High Court Enforcement (the cost of which would be added to the amount recovered) so an HCEO could attend their place of business and recover goods to service your claim amount.

There are plenty of guides online on how to use MCOL.

Could I use "The law is in s34(4), (5) and (6) here. The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (legislation"  to get a refund? Or would that not be applicable here and I should go straight to MCOL 

Not really because they reimburse you, and then sue you...

I realise it's nearly 2am and I might be a bit slow on the uptake, but why would "they reimburse" the OP and then sue the OP?

Because the legislation states that they must issue a refund within 14 days of receiving the items or evidence that the consumer returned them.

The OP has evidence of return but they don't have proof of receipt so they should be refunded under the CCR, but can easily be sued for non-return of the item because it hasn't, in fact, been returned.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

longjohnjohnson said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

longjohnjohnson said:

Quecky said:

Jenni_D said:

Quecky said:

Jenni_D said:

The chargeback will probably happen very quickly ... but the seller has 45 days to challenge it.

If they do so - and succeed - then your course of last resort is a Letter Before Claim to eBuyer followed by a small claim via MCOL.

Okay. RE Letter Before claim and small claim via MCOL. 

Is it worth getting a solicitor to do this process? 

No - that's the point of MCOL / small claims. You can't claim any legal expenses, and employing a solicitor to do this would wipe out anything you won in the claim. eBuyer may well simply cave in on receipt of the LBC. If an actual claim is filed then they may ignore it and you get a default judgment. A claim value of £700 (plus court fees) is eligible for escalation to High Court Enforcement (the cost of which would be added to the amount recovered) so an HCEO could attend their place of business and recover goods to service your claim amount.

There are plenty of guides online on how to use MCOL.

Could I use "The law is in s34(4), (5) and (6) here. The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (legislation"  to get a refund? Or would that not be applicable here and I should go straight to MCOL 

Not really because they reimburse you, and then sue you...

I realise it's nearly 2am and I might be a bit slow on the uptake, but why would "they reimburse" the OP and then sue the OP?

Because the legislation states that they must issue a refund within 14 days of receiving the items or evidence that the consumer returned them.

The OP has evidence of return but they don't have proof of receipt so they should be refunded under the CCR, but can easily be sued for non-return of the item because it hasn't, in fact, been returned.

CCR covers cancellation, OP issue is faulty goods covered by CRA….. 

Manxman_in_exile

longjohnjohnson said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

longjohnjohnson said:

Quecky said:

Jenni_D said:

Quecky said:

Jenni_D said:

The chargeback will probably happen very quickly ... but the seller has 45 days to challenge it.

If they do so - and succeed - then your course of last resort is a Letter Before Claim to eBuyer followed by a small claim via MCOL.

Okay. RE Letter Before claim and small claim via MCOL. 

Is it worth getting a solicitor to do this process? 

No - that's the point of MCOL / small claims. You can't claim any legal expenses, and employing a solicitor to do this would wipe out anything you won in the claim. eBuyer may well simply cave in on receipt of the LBC. If an actual claim is filed then they may ignore it and you get a default judgment. A claim value of £700 (plus court fees) is eligible for escalation to High Court Enforcement (the cost of which would be added to the amount recovered) so an HCEO could attend their place of business and recover goods to service your claim amount.

There are plenty of guides online on how to use MCOL.

Could I use "The law is in s34(4), (5) and (6) here. The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (legislation"  to get a refund? Or would that not be applicable here and I should go straight to MCOL 

Not really because they reimburse you, and then sue you...

I realise it's nearly 2am and I might be a bit slow on the uptake, but why would "they reimburse" the OP and then sue the OP?

Because the legislation states that they must issue a refund within 14 days of receiving the items or evidence that the consumer returned them.

The OP has evidence of return but they don't have proof of receipt so they should be refunded under the CCR, but can easily be sued for non-return of the item because it hasn't, in fact, been returned.

I see what you mean now that you've made your point clearly.  In fact it's a point that you - or someone else - has made before.

First thing I'd say is that if you want to argue that this is not a cancellation at all, because the consumer has not clearly told the reatiler that it's a cancellation, then that argument might hold some water.  However, I'd argue that if the consumer has told the trader that he wants "to return the goods for a full refund" and he has done so within the 14 days return window, then that could be construed as a cancellation of the contract.  But I'm not 100% certain about that.  That's why I've asked the OP exactly what he told eBuyer.  And I've asked because I think the OP's right to a refund is clearer in the situation where returned goods go astray when they are being returned because of cancellation rather than because they are faulty.

But if we assume for the moment that the OP is returning the goods as a cancellation, I accept that you might be right about the retailer being able to sue to recover the refund and that I might be wrong.  But can you explain your reasoning as to why you think you're right so the OP can make a more informed decision?

To me the legislation appears to clearly say that if a consumer cancels a distance sale then the trader must refund in full without undue delay.  In particular the retailer must pay a full refund no later than 14 days after either receiving the goods back or, if earlier, no later than 14 days after the consumer "supplies evidence of having sent the goods back."   (s34  The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (legislation.gov.uk)

Surely if Parliament had intended that consumers would not be legally entitled to a refund unless the retailer eventually had the goods delivered back to them, then there would be be no need at all for Parliament to have included the specific wording of s34(5)(b) in the legislation?  Or at the very least they would have amended the wording to something like:

"(5) If the contract is a sales contract and the trader has not offered to collect the goods, the time is the end of 14 days after—

(a)the day on which the trader receives the goods back, or

(b)if earlier, the day on which the consumer supplies evidence of having sent the goods back, provided always that the trader
can recover any refund they have paid to the consumer if they never receive the goods back"       [My suggested amendment in bold italic]

But Parliament didn't do that, and looking at the wording as it actually exists in the Act it would appear that s34(5)(b) is intended to cover precisely the sort of situation where a consumer can provide proof of having sent goods back to the retailer, but the retailer never receives them because they've been "lost".

Given that you seem to accept that the retailer is legally bound by statute to refund the consumer in this situation, how do you think the retailer would subsequently be able to sue the consumer to recover the refund in this situation?  Would their particulars of claim say something like "We are suing the consumer to recover a refund we paid because despite the law saying we had to pay it we think Parliament was wrong when it drafted the law and we don't think we should have to pay it"?  And why wouldn't the consumer have a defence that "I am entitled to keep a refund irrespective of whether the goods are finally received by the trader or not, because the law and Parliament says I'm entitled to it"?

I'm quite happy to accept that my understanding of what the law says might be completely wrong, but I'm sure you'd agree it would be most helpful to the OP if you could explain why your view is more likely to be correct than mine or any other view.

Moreover, I'm not certain that the trader would have grounds to sue the consumer for non-return of the item anyway, because it's not the consumer that hasn't returned it.  The consumer delivered the goods into the safekeeping of eBuyer's chosen courier/agent so it's they - not the consumer - who have lost the goods.  If eBuyer want to pursue someone for the non-return of the item, shouldn't they be suing Yodel and not the consumer?

Manxman_in_exile

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

longjohnjohnson said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

longjohnjohnson said:

Quecky said:

Jenni_D said:

Quecky said:

Jenni_D said:

The chargeback will probably happen very quickly ... but the seller has 45 days to challenge it.

If they do so - and succeed - then your course of last resort is a Letter Before Claim to eBuyer followed by a small claim via MCOL.

Okay. RE Letter Before claim and small claim via MCOL. 

Is it worth getting a solicitor to do this process? 

No - that's the point of MCOL / small claims. You can't claim any legal expenses, and employing a solicitor to do this would wipe out anything you won in the claim. eBuyer may well simply cave in on receipt of the LBC. If an actual claim is filed then they may ignore it and you get a default judgment. A claim value of £700 (plus court fees) is eligible for escalation to High Court Enforcement (the cost of which would be added to the amount recovered) so an HCEO could attend their place of business and recover goods to service your claim amount.

There are plenty of guides online on how to use MCOL.

Could I use "The law is in s34(4), (5) and (6) here. The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (legislation"  to get a refund? Or would that not be applicable here and I should go straight to MCOL 

Not really because they reimburse you, and then sue you...

I realise it's nearly 2am and I might be a bit slow on the uptake, but why would "they reimburse" the OP and then sue the OP?

Because the legislation states that they must issue a refund within 14 days of receiving the items or evidence that the consumer returned them.

The OP has evidence of return but they don't have proof of receipt so they should be refunded under the CCR, but can easily be sued for non-return of the item because it hasn't, in fact, been returned.

CCR covers cancellation, OP issue is faulty goods covered by CRA….. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

longjohnjohnson said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

longjohnjohnson said:

Quecky said:

Jenni_D said:

Quecky said:

Jenni_D said:

The chargeback will probably happen very quickly ... but the seller has 45 days to challenge it.

If they do so - and succeed - then your course of last resort is a Letter Before Claim to eBuyer followed by a small claim via MCOL.

Okay. RE Letter Before claim and small claim via MCOL. 

Is it worth getting a solicitor to do this process? 

No - that's the point of MCOL / small claims. You can't claim any legal expenses, and employing a solicitor to do this would wipe out anything you won in the claim. eBuyer may well simply cave in on receipt of the LBC. If an actual claim is filed then they may ignore it and you get a default judgment. A claim value of £700 (plus court fees) is eligible for escalation to High Court Enforcement (the cost of which would be added to the amount recovered) so an HCEO could attend their place of business and recover goods to service your claim amount.

There are plenty of guides online on how to use MCOL.

Could I use "The law is in s34(4), (5) and (6) here. The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (legislation"  to get a refund? Or would that not be applicable here and I should go straight to MCOL 

Not really because they reimburse you, and then sue you...

I realise it's nearly 2am and I might be a bit slow on the uptake, but why would "they reimburse" the OP and then sue the OP?

Because the legislation states that they must issue a refund within 14 days of receiving the items or evidence that the consumer returned them.

The OP has evidence of return but they don't have proof of receipt so they should be refunded under the CCR, but can easily be sued for non-return of the item because it hasn't, in fact, been returned.

CCR covers cancellation, OP issue is faulty goods covered by CRA….. 

Yes that's right.  But isn't the OP in a stronger position if they can argue they are making a return because of cancellation under the CCR rather than because the the goods are faulty under CRA?

Again I might be completely wrong, but if the OP is returning the goods because they are faulty, doesn't the retailer have a right to inspect the goods to confirm the fault, and don't they need to be able to agree that the consumer is entitled to refund?  How can they do that if they never receive the goods back?

The cancellation regulations cater for the situation where goods are sent back to the retailer but are never received by them, but the Consumer Rights Act doesn't seem to have any corresponding provision where returns have gone astray?

The only thing I can find is that a refund has to be paid within 14 days of a retailer agreeing that the consumer is entitled to a refund.  But if EBuyer haven't already agreed to pay a refund, how does the OP get one if the goods have gone missing before reaching eBuyer?

It's for these reasons that I've asked the OP exactly what he told eBuyer (eg did he say anything that could be construed as cancelling the contrcat?) and whether eBuyer have already agreed to pay a refund.

Or is the argument simply that this is a return of faulty goods and that once the OP handed the return over to Ebuyer's agent - Yodel - that the goods are no longer the OP's responsibility and eBuyer have to refund?

Apologies if I'm over-complicating this as I suspect I might have diverted myself down a contract cancellation rabbit hole and have just confused myself!  If I have, I don't want the OP following me... !

Manxman_in_exile

Quecky said:

Well, they don't care about the legislation.

Could someone point me in the direction of a decent template for the the 'Letter before claim/action'? 

@Quecky _  I suggest you wait for other responses before sending a letter.  (Although I don't see a problem if you've already sent one). 

Wait to see if there's any consensus as to how best to approach this and whether it makes any difference if you are returning faulty goods or trying to cancel the contract.  and whether it makes any difference whose responsibility it is when the goods go missing.  As you'll appreciate from some of the replies, there may be a difference of opinion as to how best to proceed or if you are entitled to a refund at all.  (Seems clear to me that you are entitled to one, but at least one poster is suggesting that you aren't, or that eBuyer could sue you to recover the refund).

Having said that, unless the goods turn up somewhere, I don't see how you are going to get your money back without suing them if they refuse to cough up your £700.  The only alternative is a chargeback, but I suspect eBuyer would challenge a chargeback with your bank so you'd still end up having exactly the same argument.

Quecky

Manxman_in_exile said:

Quecky said:

Well, they don't care about the legislation.

Could someone point me in the direction of a decent template for the the 'Letter before claim/action'? 

@Quecky _  I suggest you wait for other responses before sending a letter.  (Although I don't see a problem if you've already sent one). 

Wait to see if there's any consensus as to how best to approach this and whether it makes any difference if you are returning faulty goods or trying to cancel the contract.  and whether it makes any difference whose responsibility it is when the goods go missing.  As you'll appreciate from some of the replies, there may be a difference of opinion as to how best to proceed or if you are entitled to a refund at all.  (Seems clear to me that you are entitled to one, but at least one poster is suggesting that you aren't, or that eBuyer could sue you to recover the refund).

Having said that, unless the goods turn up somewhere, I don't see how you are going to get your money back without suing them if they refuse to cough up your £700.  The only alternative is a chargeback, but I suspect eBuyer would challenge a chargeback with your bank so you'd still end up having exactly the same argument.

I did sent one today, I would also agree that returning a product within the 14 day period would be considered a cancellation of contract based upon the fact they were faulty goods.  I have filed a chargeback in addition to this. I'm just hoping that one way or another I get my money back.

longjohnjohnson

Quecky said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

Quecky said:

Well, they don't care about the legislation.

Could someone point me in the direction of a decent template for the the 'Letter before claim/action'? 

@Quecky _  I suggest you wait for other responses before sending a letter.  (Although I don't see a problem if you've already sent one). 

Wait to see if there's any consensus as to how best to approach this and whether it makes any difference if you are returning faulty goods or trying to cancel the contract.  and whether it makes any difference whose responsibility it is when the goods go missing.  As you'll appreciate from some of the replies, there may be a difference of opinion as to how best to proceed or if you are entitled to a refund at all.  (Seems clear to me that you are entitled to one, but at least one poster is suggesting that you aren't, or that eBuyer could sue you to recover the refund).

Having said that, unless the goods turn up somewhere, I don't see how you are going to get your money back without suing them if they refuse to cough up your £700.  The only alternative is a chargeback, but I suspect eBuyer would challenge a chargeback with your bank so you'd still end up having exactly the same argument.

I did sent one today, I would also agree that returning a product within the 14 day period would be considered a cancellation of contract based upon the fact they were faulty goods.  I have filed a chargeback in addition to this. I'm just hoping that one way or another I get my money back.

Personally this is the approach I would take.  The stuff above was somewhat of a seperate discussion of the technicalities.

FWIW, eBuyer are well known for doing nothing more or less than the law allows and I've avoided them as far as possible when making PC parts purchases for this reason.

Manxman_in_exile

OK.  It's just possible you may have jumped the gun a bit if you've sent them a Letter Before Claim and you've raised a chargeback with your bank.

The problem is your bank will take a while to process the chargeback, and if they grant it eBuyer has a window of 30 or 45 days (I'm not sure what the exact number of days is) to challenge the chargeback.  The issue then is that if you've given them (for example) 14 days in your Letter Before Claim, then you can't really do anything when those 14 days expire because you probably won't know at that point whether (a) the chargeback has been granted and (b) whether or not eBuyer has challenged it.  Do you see what I mean?

Another possible problem with a chargeback is that it isn't strictly part of the "legal" process - it's just an agreement between card providers.  There have been instances on here where consumers have apparently won a chargeback and the retailer has not challenged it, but then the retailer has sued the consumer for return of the chargeback.

Also, if you do a chargeback and a Letter Before Claim at the same time, there is always the possibility that you might end up getting refunded twice (once by your bank and once by eBuyer) and then having to sort out the mess.  It can all get a bit complicated...

But whichever route this ends up going down, the key facts you need to emphasise to your bank (for the chargeback) or to the court (if you end up having to sue eBuyer) are:

• you bought an item of equipment online that was faulty;
• within 14 days of receipt you notified ebuyer of the fault and told them you wanted a refund;
• eBuyer authorised the return and provided you with a pre-paid returns label for use with their chosen courier, Yodel;
• you delivered the item to be returned into the custody of Yodel;
• Yodel subsequently lost the item and eBuyer have refused to refund you despite you providing evidence that it has been sent back (ie that you handed it in to Yodel, eBuyer's agent)

Your claim would be that (1) you have returned faulty goods for a refund and/or (2) you have cancelled a distance sale and have returned goods for a refund.

In either (1) or (2) you handed the goods for return over to the courier selected by and paid for by eBuyer.  As such you had fulfilled your obligations in respect of returning the goods and getting a refund.  If eBuyer's agent subsequently lost the goods, that has nothing to do with you.  That's a matter between eBuyer and Yodel.

Additionally in respect of (2), if it's accepted that, by telling eBuyer that you wanted to return the item for a refund, you were in effect cancelling a distance contract, then you are entitled to a refund within 14 days of supplying to eBuyer proof that you had sent the item back.

I suspect (1) might be a sounder argument than (2).  You'll have noted that some people are of the view that if you cancel a distance contract that you are only eligible for a refund if the retailer actually receives the goods back, and not if the goods are lost.  I suspect the point has never been decided in court, so it might be less risky to confine your argument to (1) the return of faulty goods for a refund.

In any case I think all you can do now (unless your bank asks for evidence in support of your chargeback claim) is to sit back and see whether eBuyer respond to your Letter Before Claim or your bank grants you the chargeback.

If neither happens you'll need to decide whether to sue them or not.  There's always a risk involved if you go to court as no court result is ever guaranteed, but for the sake of £700 you may have to take that risk.

longjohnjohnson

Manxman_in_exile said:

OK.  It's just possible you may have jumped the gun a bit if you've sent them a Letter Before Claim and you've raised a chargeback with your bank.

The problem is your bank will take a while to process the chargeback, and if they grant it eBuyer has a window of 30 or 45 days (I'm not sure what the exact number of days is) to challenge the chargeback.  The issue then is that if you've given them (for example) 14 days in your Letter Before Claim, then you can't really do anything when those 14 days expire because you probably won't know at that point whether (a) the chargeback has been granted and (b) whether or not eBuyer has challenged it.  Do you see what I mean?

Another possible problem with a chargeback is that it isn't strictly part of the "legal" process - it's just an agreement between card providers.  There have been instances on here where consumers have apparently won a chargeback and the retailer has not challenged it, but then the retailer has sued the consumer for return of the chargeback.

Also, if you do a chargeback and a Letter Before Claim at the same time, there is always the possibility that you might end up getting refunded twice (once by your bank and once by eBuyer) and then having to sort out the mess.  It can all get a bit complicated...

But whichever route this ends up going down, the key facts you need to emphasise to your bank (for the chargeback) or to the court (if you end up having to sue eBuyer) are:

• you bought an item of equipment online that was faulty;
• within 14 days of receipt you notified ebuyer of the fault and told them you wanted a refund;
• eBuyer authorised the return and provided you with a pre-paid returns label for use with their chosen courier, Yodel;
• you delivered the item to be returned into the custody of Yodel;
• Yodel subsequently lost the item and eBuyer have refused to refund you despite you providing evidence that it has been sent back (ie that you handed it in to Yodel, eBuyer's agent)

Your claim would be that (1) you have returned faulty goods for a refund and/or (2) you have cancelled a distance sale and have returned goods for a refund.

In either (1) or (2) you handed the goods for return over to the courier selected by and paid for by eBuyer.  As such you had fulfilled your obligations in respect of returning the goods and getting a refund.  If eBuyer's agent subsequently lost the goods, that has nothing to do with you.  That's a matter between eBuyer and Yodel.

Additionally in respect of (2), if it's accepted that, by telling eBuyer that you wanted to return the item for a refund, you were in effect cancelling a distance contract, then you are entitled to a refund within 14 days of supplying to eBuyer proof that you had sent the item back.

I suspect (1) might be a sounder argument than (2).  You'll have noted that some people are of the view that if you cancel a distance contract that you are only eligible for a refund if the retailer actually receives the goods back, and not if the goods are lost.  I suspect the point has never been decided in court, so it might be less risky to confine your argument to (1) the return of faulty goods for a refund.

In any case I think all you can do now (unless your bank asks for evidence in support of your chargeback claim) is to sit back and see whether eBuyer respond to your Letter Before Claim or your bank grants you the chargeback.

If neither happens you'll need to decide whether to sue them or not.  There's always a risk involved if you go to court as no court result is ever guaranteed, but for the sake of £700 you may have to take that risk.

An LBA is just that, a letter before action.  It doesn't require the OP to do anything, it's just a polite letter before they take action.

Arguably hitting them with that and a chargeback will make them less likely to contest a chargeback because they know what will come next.

Quecky

Manxman_in_exile said:

First thing I'd say is that if you want to argue that this is not a cancellation at all, because the consumer has not clearly told the reatiler that it's a cancellation, then that argument might hold some water.  However, I'd argue that if the consumer has told the trader that he wants "to return the goods for a full refund" and he has done so within the 14 days return window, then that could be construed as a cancellation of the contract.  But I'm not 100% certain about that.  That's why I've asked the OP exactly what he told eBuyer.  And I've asked because I think the OP's right to a refund is clearer in the situation where returned goods go astray when they are being returned because of cancellation rather than because they are faulty.

But if we assume for the moment that the OP is returning the goods as a cancellation, I accept that you might be right about the retailer being able to sue to recover the refund and that I might be wrong.  But can you explain your reasoning as to why you think you're right so the OP can make a more informed decision?

RE: what's why I've asked the OP exactly what he told eBuyer. 

After I stated over email that the purchased device was dead upon arrival, the below correspondence was exchanged; following their approval to return the device (once again I assume by returning a product the contract between myself and the retailer would be considered a cancelled contract, even though this was not specified stated that I was cancelling the contract)