Private car park disguised as public road

gorilla17

Sorry to create a new post, but I haven't been able to find any other posts relevant to my situation. I received a PCN from Private Parking Solutions (London) Ltd for "parking on yellow lines" on private land. The site in question looks like a public road, aside from a few small signs near the start of the road that indicate that the parking is managed by PPS rather than the local council, but there's no boundary between the council-run street and the "private land" so you wouldn't know unless you've stopped to read the signs.

I pulled over to the side of the road briefly, waiting for a parking space to become available. As it happens, I stopped next to a sign which says "no parking on yellow lines". When it became clear that the parking space wasn't going to become free quickly, and that I couldn't park on the yellow lines, I moved on. The car was stationery for less than 2 minutes, and I never got out of the car. 

I have appealed as far as POPLA. There's no point in denying I was the driver, as I'm identifiably still in the vehicle in the photos they've provided. PPS's response says:

"The photographs show that the vehicle was stationary and therefore parked, and as such, the warden is not required to observe it for a certain period of time before beginning the process of issuing the PCN.

While there must be a reasonable consideration period given to the driver to leave before they are bound by the parking contract, Section 13.4 of the BPA Code of Practice states there are instances where unauthorised motorists will not be entitled to the minimum time period of 5 minutes for a consideration period. As parking was not permitted at all on the site, the driver would not be entitled to any grace period."

This is obviously complete BS, but I'm wondering whether anyone has any advice for how I should word my response to POPLA. A previous appeal for another incident on the same street was rejected, and I'm currently at the stage of ignoring letters from Debt Recovery Plus for that one, so I was just wondering if I could avoid that stage this time around!

Many thanks.

Le_Kirk

Waiting for a space is not parking; see this from Parking Prankster: -
http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2014/03/waiting-for-space-is-not-parking.html

KeithP

gorilla17 said:

There's no point in denying I was the driver, as I'm identifiably still in the vehicle in the photos they've provided.

So do PPS have access to a database that allows them to put a name to that picture you say they have?

If not, how on earth can they possibly assume that you, the vehicle's keeper, were driving at the time?

Where exactly did this alleged parking event take place?

gorilla17

KeithP said:

gorilla17 said:

There's no point in denying I was the driver, as I'm identifiably still in the vehicle in the photos they've provided.

So do PPS have access to a database that allows them to put a name to that picture you say they have?

If not, how on earth can they possibly assume that you, the vehicle's keeper, were driving at the time?

Where exactly did this alleged parking event take place?

You may have a point, but unfortunately that ship has sailed - I referred to myself in the first person in my original appeal. 

This happened on Regis Road in Kentish Town, London NW5. If you look on Google, you'll see there's nothing to indicate this is not a public road other than small signs on the wall that you'd never be able to read while driving.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5508272,-0.1409777,3a,75y,222.46h,76.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxBIjWuwXQL6FPosSwQct4w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

gorilla17

Le_Kirk said:

Waiting for a space is not parking; see this from Parking Prankster: -
http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2014/03/waiting-for-space-is-not-parking.html

Thanks for this. I didn't mention the "waiting for a space" part in my original appeal - just that I had pulled over to read the sign, and when I read that I couldn't park on yellow lines, I moved on. The crux of their argument seems to be that because the vehicle is stationary, it was parked. But as far as I'm concerned, stopping to read a sign isn't parking. How can I get this point across in my response to POPLA?

Half_way

BPA code of practice, grace period, and the fact that DYLs on their own do not mean no stopping / unloading etc

Do you know who owns the land?

Charge the scumbag parking company and copy in the landowner - unauthorised access of personal data, breach of GDPR costs at upto £19/hour or part thereof.

gorilla17

Half_way said:

BPA code of practice, grace period, and the fact that DYLs on their own do not mean no stopping / unloading etc

Do you know who owns the land?

Charge the scumbag parking company and copy in the landowner - unauthorised access of personal data, breach of GDPR costs at upto £19/hour or part thereof.

I can't find any information about who owns the land, but it's a really strange arrangement because PPS are obviously only responsible for the parking on the road. There are lots of private businesses accessed via the road (ironically one of the businesses on the estate is the base for Camden Council's parking wardens!

Umkomaas

I can't find any information about who owns the land,

SOME IDEAS ON DETERMINING WHO OWNS THE LAND 

1. Google searches

2. If a retail park, check on any signage which lists the on-site outlets

3. Ask retailers on the site if there is a managing agent

4. Ask retailers on the site to whom do they pay rent

5. Contact the local authority and ask who pays the non-domestic/business rate for the car park (some councils have a spreadsheet on their website)

6. Contact the local Valuation Office and ask if they know. They often have a website which might provide the information 

7. Contact The Land Registry and for around £3 they should be able to provide definitive detail

gorilla17

Quick update for you - much to my surprise, POPLA upheld my appeal. PPS's assertion that I wasn't entitled to a 5 minute grace period was deemed to be nonsense. Common sense has prevailed. It feels really good to get one over on them. Thanks everyone for your help.

Coupon-mad

Great stuff!

Please post the POPLA decision in POPLA DECISIONS (top of the forum) but unlike the latest one you see there (which is an unreadable wall of text) PLEASE add ten paragraph breaks or so.

gorilla17

Done. Thanks again.